# Movie Debates: Saving Private Ryan: what would \_you\_ do with Steamboat Willie? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 5, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-debates-saving-private-ryan-what-would-_you_-do-with-steamboat-willie/531462 "2010-03-05T20:15:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![History\_Geek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b19c9b/32.png) [@History\_Geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/History_Geek)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-debates-saving-private-ryan-what-would-_you_-do-with-steamboat-willie/531462/61 "2010-03-08T21:24:09Z")
Those were just random GIs, helpfully showing that war is hell. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-debates-saving-private-ryan-what-would-_you_-do-with-steamboat-willie/531462/62 "2010-03-08T21:24:19Z")
In order of preference: 1. Shoot him in the hand (or some such) and let him go. 2. Just let him go (after taking his equipment). 3. Just shoot him in the head. 4. Escort him to allied lines (not just time-consuming, but also dangerous). **Sampiro** , I’m pretty sure we don’t see those guys again. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-debates-saving-private-ryan-what-would-_you_-do-with-steamboat-willie/531462/63 "2010-03-08T21:29:30Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Another “I haven’t seen the movie recently” question: at the beginning of the movie, just after they’ve reached the top of the hill on Omaha Beach, several Germans come out to surrender and are shot down by soldiers joking “Sorry, I don’t understand German”. This was cold blooded murder. (There’s also the “let 'em burn to death” scene where they don’t shoot Germans immolated by a flamethrower.) > Were these characters who were later on the march or ‘spear carriers’ who were just in that scene? They were spear carriers. Tom Hanks saw them do it though, and looked pensive. Earlier in that sequence, Hanks & his men definitely mow down Germans who probably would have wanted to surrender if given the chance - they’re waiting by the back entrance to one of the bunkers overlooking the beach, and shoot Germans as they try to escape. Then they call for the flamethrower to clear the bunker. That’s the thing - soldiers have no duty to allow an enemy time or opportunity to surrender - you don’t have to yell “Surrender or we’ll kill you all!” - you can just kill them. Giving the enemy a chance to surrender first just gives them a chance to kill you instead. Soldiers aren’t cops. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-debates-saving-private-ryan-what-would-_you_-do-with-steamboat-willie/531462/64 "2010-03-08T21:35:26Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Right - you absolutely can and probably should shoot him right then. But if you don’t shoot him, and take him into custody, and put him into a work detail, you don’t get to decide an hour later that he didn’t surrender early enough and shoot him then. Agreed. That, IMO, would be murder. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-debates-saving-private-ryan-what-would-_you_-do-with-steamboat-willie/531462/65 "2010-03-08T21:36:11Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > **robby** , is there any slack in the laws to account for the fact that things are incredibly frantic and stressful in combat? Say you enter the bunker, the enemy soldier is turned away from you but has a rifle in his hands. He starts to turn towards you, realizes you’ve got the drop on him, so he lets go of the rifle and starts to raise his hands. You, reacting to movement of an armed enemy soldier, shoot him multiple times, then realize he had already let go of the rifle before you fired your first shot. That isn’t a crime, is it? You don’t have to give the enemy a chance to surrender before shooting - if he wanted to surrender safely, he should have had his rifle on the ground and his hands in the air before you even got in the bunker. No, that not a crime, as I understand it. You are under no obligation to give the enemy a chance to surrender. As someone else said earlier in the thread, you’re not a cop–you’re a soldier on the battlefield. In the situation you just described, you are absolutely in the clear. > [@Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](#): > > It’s up to the surrendering party to make it perfectly clear they are surrendering. If you’re fumbling about in a way that might be regarded as threatening, it’s your own fault if you get killed. Exactly. > [@Sampiro](#): > > Another “I haven’t seen the movie recently” question: at the beginning of the movie, just after they’ve reached the top of the hill on Omaha Beach, several Germans come out to surrender and are shot down by soldiers joking “Sorry, I don’t understand German”. This was cold blooded murder. Yes–that was also a war crime, on the part of the U.S. soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-debates-saving-private-ryan-what-would-_you_-do-with-steamboat-willie/531462/66 "2010-03-08T21:39:03Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > In order of preference: > > 1. Shoot him in the hand (or some such) and let him go. > 2. Just let him go (after taking his equipment). > 3. Just shoot him in the head. > 4. Escort him to allied lines (not just time-consuming, but also dangerous). Options (1) and (3) are war crimes. Your only legal actions in this list are options (2) and (4). ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-debates-saving-private-ryan-what-would-_you_-do-with-steamboat-willie/531462/67 "2010-03-08T21:40:43Z")
P.S. I’ll just add that the U.S. today has combatants (e.g. pilots) who may be bombing the enemy one moment, and be shot down and find themselves on the ground in the hands of the enemy the next. If captured, we expect the enemy to treat them as POWs in accordance with the Geneva Conventions. We would condemn any peremptory execution of our pilots, and would treat these actions as the war crimes that they are. The situation of a machine gunner who surrenders when his bunker is breached is much the same. According to the Geneva Conventions (and U.S. law), you don’t get to execute a combatant after they have surrendered, even if they were machine gunning you or bombing you moments before. P.P.S. This was actually a postscript to my comments in Post #56. (I was in the process of writing this earlier, but it got lost in the shuffle.) ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-debates-saving-private-ryan-what-would-_you_-do-with-steamboat-willie/531462/68 "2010-03-08T21:47:30Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > What doesn’t make any sense is that they captured him in the first place - they’re storming the machine gun nest after watching their friend die, and they _don’t_ shoot the single German soldier in the pit just because he appears to be unarmed? I’m don’t think it’s a violation of the relevant conventions to shoot him then - he hadn’t clearly surrendered and IIRC he was trying to pry a rifle out from under one of his dead comrades. Why wouldn’t hardened combat vets just shoot him right then and there? Is that how it happened in the film? I’d forgotten that bit. Agree that doesn’t make much sense. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-debates-saving-private-ryan-what-would-_you_-do-with-steamboat-willie/531462/69 "2010-03-08T22:05:08Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > Is that how it happened in the film? I’d forgotten that bit. Agree that doesn’t make much sense. Actually, I have to take that back. It’s on youtube, and the first we see of Steamboat Willie the BAR gunner has already captured him and is beating him mercilessly. The actual capture/surrender happens off screen while Wade is dying. Now why the BAR gunner wouldn’t just rake the machine gun nest with automatic fire while running towards it is beyond me - it’s the safest thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-debates-saving-private-ryan-what-would-_you_-do-with-steamboat-willie/531462/70 "2010-03-09T10:30:26Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > How about if instead of a million dollars I offer you the fact he (or somebody next to him) just killed a comrade you’ve grown to love like a brother over the last couple of years and who has come to your aide several times and who was a non-combatant medic, and with whom you survived many battles including most recently the hell on Earth at Omaha Beach in which you slipped and slid on guts all day long caused by the army this guy fights with, none of the stress and horror you’ve had a chance to cope with because you’re constantly on the move sleeping a few minutes at a time when you can as you’re on what could well be a suicide mission in the middle of a land about which the only thing you really know is that you’re outnumbered by armed-to-the-teeth Germans who will kill you without a second thought the second they get a chance much as they did this medic/kid you love whose guts you’ve now seen and whose cries of agony and for his mother you’ve now heard, and oh- btw- this German soldier will absolutely alert other Germans to your presence if he gets half the chance and you know good and well he’ll rejoin with them rather than turn himself in because you certainly would if positions were reversed. Would that make you less inclined to mercy than ethical debate perhaps? Wouldn’t any nearby Germans have already been alerted? Did the Germans have a radio? Did those Germans have any sort of communication set up with the rest of their forces? The sound of that gunfire also must have travelled pretty far. I suppose it depends on what exactly the Germans were doing there, which seems to be under debate. Were they behind German lines? I got the impression they were in some kind of disputed no man’s land, but since they run into lots of Americans and only a few Germans, and they were traveling from one American position to another, I assumed they were closer to the American lines. As far as the audience knows, Steamboat Willy doesn’t get back to any other Germans in time to set them after Hanks’s group. If Hanks and his men were so worried about being found by other nearby Germans, why did they take the time to hang around and make Steamboat dig graves and have an ethical debate. I don’t think anyone here is arguing that the severe stress, anger, and grief soldiers face in combat can’t contribute to warping morality or causing irrational behavior. I also can’t know exactly if this would happen to me under certain circumstances. I think few posters can. Did we get any replies from any combat vets? I do know a few Vietnam combat vets, as well as one from WWII and one from Iraq that are still very troubled by the violence they committed against the enemy. Knowing what I know from listening to them, I am not sure I would want this guy’s face following me around for the rest of my life. I wouldn’t want to have to spend any time wondering if Steamboat’s mother was still alive, if he had a wife, if he had a best buddy from boot camp, if I didn’t really have to. Shooting an unarmed man is generally considered a cowardly and dishonorable act. If the soldiers had executed Steamboat Willy, I would have described their actions as cowardly and dishonorable, although I would find myself sympathetic to their motivations. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-debates-saving-private-ryan-what-would-_you_-do-with-steamboat-willie/531462/71 "2010-03-09T12:20:11Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Actually, I have to take that back. It’s on youtube, and the first we see of Steamboat Willie the BAR gunner has already captured him and is beating him mercilessly. The actual capture/surrender happens off screen while Wade is dying. Now why the BAR gunner wouldn’t just rake the machine gun nest with automatic fire while running towards it is beyond me - it’s the safest thing to do. Who knows. Maybe his clip ran out, and he had to engage hand-to-hand, or maybe he just wanted some personal revenge. Or this being hollywood, maybe it just wasn’t thought through very well. For those in favour of executing S Willie, how would you feel if the germans had won that fight, and one of the american soldiers surrendered? Are they justified in executing him? ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-debates-saving-private-ryan-what-would-_you_-do-with-steamboat-willie/531462/72 "2010-03-09T13:08:39Z")
At the end of the movie doesn’t Steamboat Willie pass the translator on the stairs after having killed the Jewish soldier? He could have easily killed him but instead chose to let him live. He wasn’t an evil psychopath, he was a soldier just like the protagonists. I vote letting him live. Stripping him of gear and leaving him wouldn’t work, considering he could just salvage the gear of his dead comrades. I would have sent him towards friendly forces, just like what happened in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-debates-saving-private-ryan-what-would-_you_-do-with-steamboat-willie/531462/73 "2010-03-09T13:14:53Z")
I don’t think they could afford to send Upham away, so probably tie his arms and bring him along until finding someone to hand him off to. It does seem counter-intuitive to let him go when he can just pick up a weapon, turn around, and start shooting you again. In reality though he would probably never have been captured alive. He was not in a position to convincingly surrender before being killed. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-debates-saving-private-ryan-what-would-_you_-do-with-steamboat-willie/531462/74 "2010-03-09T14:09:10Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > At the end of the movie doesn’t Steamboat Willie pass the translator on the stairs after having killed the Jewish soldier? He could have easily killed him but instead chose to let him live. > > He wasn’t an evil psychopath, he was a soldier just like the protagonists. > > I vote letting him live. Stripping him of gear and leaving him wouldn’t work, considering he could just salvage the gear of his dead comrades. I would have sent him towards friendly forces, just like what happened in the movie. The German who kills Mellish with a bayonet, then walks past a crying Upham on the stairs is not Steamboat Willie. Googling “steamboat willie mellish” leads to this [page](http://www.sproe.com/s/steamboat-comparison.html). It’s unfortunate they looked similar. However, the soldier who Upham kills at the end **is** Steamboat Willie. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-debates-saving-private-ryan-what-would-_you_-do-with-steamboat-willie/531462/75 "2010-03-09T14:11:02Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > The German who kills Mellish with a bayonet, then walks past a crying Upham on the stairs is not Steamboat Willie. Googling “steamboat willie mellish” leads to this [page](http://www.sproe.com/s/steamboat-comparison.html). It’s unfortunate they looked similar. However, the soldier who Upham kills at the end **is** Steamboat Willie. Wait wait wait. That’s NOT him?!?! Seriously?! I’ve spent the last few years thinking that was the guy from the grave-digging scene! If this is correct, I’ve just had my world rocked. Edit: I read the page you linked to and yeah, it’s obvious that they’re not the same guy when you compare them side by side. Oh man. =( I’ve always been like “Why did you kill him at the end?! He let you live on the stairs!!” This is groundbreaking for me. xD ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-debates-saving-private-ryan-what-would-_you_-do-with-steamboat-willie/531462/76 "2010-03-09T15:02:27Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > Who knows. Maybe his clip ran out, and he had to engage hand-to-hand, or maybe he just wanted some personal revenge. Or this being hollywood, maybe it just wasn’t thought through very well. > > For those in favour of executing S Willie, how would you feel if the germans had won that fight, and one of the american soldiers surrendered? Are they justified in executing him? Why would it make a difference? I fire on Germans advancing and kill/wound some of them…when they finally get to me would I expect to be allowed to surrender? No…the time to surrender is before I killed/wounded them…not after. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-debates-saving-private-ryan-what-would-_you_-do-with-steamboat-willie/531462/77 "2010-03-09T15:07:10Z")
Wait a tick. If it wasn’t Steamboat who killed Mellish, why did Upham kill Steamboat at the end of the film? I had always thought he was avenging Mellish’s death and making up for his inability to do so on the stairs! ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-debates-saving-private-ryan-what-would-_you_-do-with-steamboat-willie/531462/78 "2010-03-09T15:14:56Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Another “I haven’t seen the movie recently” question: at the beginning of the movie, just after they’ve reached the top of the hill on Omaha Beach, several Germans come out to surrender and are shot down by soldiers joking “Sorry, I don’t understand German”. This was cold blooded murder. (There’s also the “let 'em burn to death” scene where they don’t shoot Germans immolated by a flamethrower.) > Were these characters who were later on the march or ‘spear carriers’ who were just in that scene? Just FYI, the wermacht soldiers who tried to surrender were Czechs, not Germans. It was an accurate, but obscure detail to put in the movie. I only noticed it because the subtitles on the DVD noted that they were speaking in Czech. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-debates-saving-private-ryan-what-would-_you_-do-with-steamboat-willie/531462/79 "2010-03-09T15:16:33Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Wait a tick. > > If it wasn’t Steamboat who killed Mellish, why did Upham kill Steamboat at the end of the film? I had always thought he was avenging Mellish’s death and making up for his inability to do so on the stairs! Because he saw steamboat Willie shoot down Capt. Miller. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-debates-saving-private-ryan-what-would-_you_-do-with-steamboat-willie/531462/80 "2010-03-09T15:22:46Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > Because he saw steamboat Willie shoot down Capt. Miller. Do we actually see Willie shoot Miller, as opposed to shooting AT Miller? They weren’t that close to each other physically - Willie was firing from cover towards the Americans who were retreating across the bridge. I think Upham was pissed because he saw that rather than surrender to the next set of Americans who came along, Willie found and rejoined a German unit and went back into combat. And he was doubly pissed because after Upham captured him & the other soldiers, Willie tried to treat him like an old pal - “Hey Upham, it’s me! How you been!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-debates-saving-private-ryan-what-would-_you_-do-with-steamboat-willie/531462.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-debates-saving-private-ryan-what-would-_you_-do-with-steamboat-willie/531462.md?page=5)