# Movie fights vs. real fights? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 7, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-fights-vs-real-fights/502199 "2009-07-07T15:23:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-fights-vs-real-fights/502199/21 "2009-07-08T18:32:42Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Like the kick to the groin, this may be effective on someone who has not been on a fight, but it’s not going to do much against an experienced fighter except further enrage him. The most effective non-permanently deforming strikes are those to the solar plexus and kidneys; the most effective non-lethal strikes are those to the knees, shoulders, and elbows. The idea of defense is to end the fight as quickly as possible by rendering your opponent incapable of functioning or mobility. A blow to the nose or genitals may hurt, but it won’t stop many people and does not affect the fighting and locomotion ability of the target. Well, my Dad said it would stop many, in fact most, people. True, it won’t stop a pro or someone on crack. It worked just fine for me. Most people are not “experienced fighters”. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-fights-vs-real-fights/502199/22 "2009-07-08T19:03:53Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, my Dad said it would stop many, in fact most, people. True, it won’t stop a pro or someone on crack. It worked just fine for me. Most people are not “experienced fighters”. Right. This is like the argument that you shouldn’t lock your doors or get a security system for your home, because they can, of course, be disabled by someone with enough skill. But how many times are you going to be facing someone with enough skill? You’re just trying to improve your odds. ---
**Author:** ![Dublin11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Dublin11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dublin11)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-fights-vs-real-fights/502199/23 "2009-07-08T19:26:24Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > Well the main thing is that real fights don’t have two guys standing off trading punches. Real bar fights and street fights 90% of the time have one or two awkward, badly aimed swings, then devolve immediately into clutching and grabbing and stumbling and falling and gasping for breath. The other 9% of the time one of the guys actually knows what he’s doing, and drops the guy in a couple well aimed hits, or throws. (The final 1% of the time is when both guys know how to to fight, but I’ve never seen it happen) The fight scene in Bridget Jones’ Diary between Colin Firth and Hugh Grant is the best example I’ve ever seen of that sort of fight. Apart from the bit where they go through the window, of course. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-fights-vs-real-fights/502199/24 "2009-07-08T20:20:55Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > And your response is begging the question. Except of course it’s not. > [@](#): > > Most people who study Oriental martial arts, even those intended to be a fighting art rather than demonstration, are not trained to fight; they’re trained to perform technique and (hopefully) demonstrate good stance and balance. These are all important things, they’re not “actual self defense”. Way too much assumption on your part. How do you profess to be familiar with how “most people” are trained? Particularly considering how many schools have adjusted their training since the advent of MMA? ---
**Author:** ![BigShooter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f07891/32.png) [@BigShooter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigShooter)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-fights-vs-real-fights/502199/25 "2009-07-08T20:23:47Z")
Regarding the question of who’s more likely to win - a street fighter or a martial artist - I think I have a little experience in the area. In my experience as a bouncer and Krav Maga student, I can say that most martial artists that I’ve come across have had no idea what they were getting into in a street fight. Krav is all about street fighting - incapacitating your opponent and getting the fuck out of Dodge by any means possible. Almost all martial arts guys that I have trained with are floored (literally) at how easily their moves are countered by an experienced street fighter… That being said, the average drunk in a bar is not an experienced street fighter. When I was bouncing, I rarely had to use any force at all other than a steel toed boot to the back of the knee… ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-fights-vs-real-fights/502199/26 "2009-07-08T20:54:20Z")
Which brings up a good point, bouncers aren’t drunk, and the patrons are. You’re not busting out precision moves when just standing is wobbly. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-fights-vs-real-fights/502199/27 "2009-07-09T00:32:54Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > Right. This is like the argument that you shouldn’t lock your doors or get a security system for your home, because they can, of course, be disabled by someone with enough skill. But how many times are you going to be facing someone with enough skill? You’re just trying to improve your odds. Good point. It’s also like gun fanatics saying a .25 is worthless as you really do need something more powerful sometimes, like against someone hopped up. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-fights-vs-real-fights/502199/28 "2009-07-09T00:47:23Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > Except of course it’s not. Sure it is. You’re asserting that “trained martial artists” are superior fighters, but in fact the training that most martial artists receive is oriented toward technique, not the practicalities of fighting. Quite frankly, most people don’t want to do what it takes to become an experienced streetfighter. > [@RikWriter](#): > > Way too much assumption on your part. How do you profess to be familiar with how “most people” are trained? Particularly considering how many schools have adjusted their training since the advent of MMA? First of all, while MMA training has expanded significantly it is still a minority of the MA training market. Second, MMA is less a technique-based traditional martial art than replicating actual fight-like conditions, to the point that it is not unusual to sustain fairly serious injuries in training. While it integrates some traditional MA techniques, a majority portion of MMA is (or degenerates to) groundfighting, which most traditional martial arts (karate/kenpo, savate, boxing) try to stay way from. You’re trying to define a “trained martial artist” as someone “trained” by the experience of being in an actual fight, which is not what you are going to see in most dojos, particularly the franchise schools that teach along traditional technique method, i.e. Parker Kenpo, aikido, taekwondo. I’m not saying such training is not useful, but the technique is only one component of an effective fighter, and the other components are taught only incompletely or not at all in most schools. Regardless, most movie fights do not look like MMA matches any more than they look like Chuck Norris facing off with a circle of henchmen before the final showdown with the main villain. The vast majority of real fights are one or two punch affairs, even between trained fighters. This Jason Bourne business of extended Krav Maga combat that goes on for a minute or more of movie time with each combatant taking multiple blows to the head or torso and executing precise, seemless technique without being winded or seriously injured is just not real, any more than a sniper taking 500 meter clean and steady shots from a moving helicopter is. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-fights-vs-real-fights/502199/29 "2009-07-09T01:56:16Z")
I’m reminded of an interview I heard shortly after ‘Cinderella Man’ was released. Russell Crowe worked out at a boxing gym in Toronto while the film was shooting, and several of the boxers from that gym were on set as extras or as ‘sparring targets’ for many of the boxing shots. CBC interviewed the coach from that boxing gym as well as some of the boxers. From memory, because I can’t find the interview… Early on, one of the boxers said that Russell Crowe had an okay punch, for an actor. Pause. The interviewer asked him to elaborate, and he said ‘Well, it was pretty slow and it was always obvious, but he did have a little bit of power.’ The interviewer became intrigued - ‘Was he actually hitting you guys some of the time?’ Pause. ‘Well, here’s the thing - he’s a brave one, I’ll give him that. But what people who don’t fight don’t understand is that we spend years learning two things - how to punch hard and quick, and how to take a punch. So, he used to say to us “Come on, guys, let’s spar for real today!!”, and the coach or the assistant director or whoever was there would catch our eye behind Mr. Crowe’s back, and they’d just shake their heads.’ The coach then stepped in and explained just how much power is behind a boxer’s punch, and how the director had made it absolutely clear to him that Mr. Crowe was not to be injured or scarred under any circumstances. The continuity for the film was already hellish because of all the boxing, and having to write in where he got a bruise and then keep track of whether the bruise should or should not be covered up depending on which take got used for which scene - Just! Don’t! Hit! Russell! Crowe! Hard! Ever! So here were these boxers, taking it easy on the actor, and yet, taking everything he could dish out. Except everything he could dish out wasn’t that much compared to what these guys were used to. ---
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-fights-vs-real-fights/502199/30 "2009-07-09T10:51:32Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Like the kick to the groin, this may be effective on someone who has not been on a fight, but it’s not going to do much against an experienced fighter except further enrage him…A blow to the nose or genitals may hurt, but it won’t stop many people and does not affect the fighting and locomotion ability of the target. Then why do world-class MMA fighters, in full fighting mode, visibly shirk from even a slight brush of a foot to the groin area? There’s pain and _pain._ IANAE, but I’ve been hit on the nose four times in past drunken brawls and even when it did drop me on my ass and ruined my shirt, I felt relatively little pain. I’ve also been hit in the groin area multiple times in sparring / fighting, and the pain has been basically incapacitating every time. Intense waves of pain shooting in all directions from the sack really make it hard to concentrate. Seems to affect the pros, too, who get to spend ample time recovering after an accidental nut contact. ---
**Author:** ![De\_La\_Rue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@De\_La\_Rue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/De_La_Rue)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-fights-vs-real-fights/502199/31 "2009-07-09T14:42:05Z")
> [@Busy\_Scissors](#): > > 1 _v_ 2, 3 or n doesn’t take place in real life with the 1 coming out on top, or at least not often. Extremely difficult to take on even two people in a fight if they’re both motivated and looking to get involved. But what if they attack one at a time? ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-fights-vs-real-fights/502199/32 "2009-07-09T15:22:13Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Sure it is. You’re asserting that “trained martial artists” are superior fighters, but in fact the training that most martial artists receive is oriented toward technique, not the practicalities of fighting. Quite frankly, most people don’t want to do what it takes to become an experienced streetfighter. So you don’t think technique has anything to do with fighting? :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > First of all, while MMA training has expanded significantly it is still a minority of the MA training market. But MMA techniques are increasingly included in other, traditional martiial arts training. > [@](#): > > Second, MMA is less a technique-based traditional martial art than replicating actual fight-like conditions, to the point that it is not unusual to sustain fairly serious injuries in training. While it integrates some traditional MA techniques, a majority portion of MMA is (or degenerates to) groundfighting, which most traditional martial arts (karate/kenpo, savate, boxing) try to stay way from. Sorry, but that’s ludicrous. Of COURSE MMA is based on techniques…that’s what arm bars, takedowns, etc… ARE. And again, you are apparently not aware of how much these are being incorporated into traditional martial arts nowadays. > [@](#): > > You’re trying to define a “trained martial artist” as someone “trained” by the experience of being in an actual fight, which is not what you are going to see in most dojos, particularly the franchise schools that teach along traditional technique method, i.e. Parker Kenpo, aikido, taekwondo. No, that’s nothing but your baseless assertion. I never said that. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-fights-vs-real-fights/502199/33 "2009-07-09T15:28:29Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > So you don’t think technique has anything to do with fighting? :rolleyes: So is it that you lack either basic reading comprehension skills, or the courtesy to actually read through an entire post before responding with invective and _ad hominem_? Stranger ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-fights-vs-real-fights/502199/34 "2009-07-09T15:43:27Z")
> [@BigShooter](#): > > In my experience as a bouncer and Krav Maga student, I can say that most martial artists that I’ve come across have had no idea what they were getting into in a street fight. Krav is all about street fighting - incapacitating your opponent and getting the fuck out of Dodge by any means possible. Almost all martial arts guys that I have trained with are floored (literally) at how easily their moves are countered by an experienced street fighter… > > That being said, the average drunk in a bar is not an experienced street fighter. When I was bouncing, I rarely had to use any force at all other than a steel toed boot to the back of the knee… What exactly is an “experienced street fighter”? And how are they different from an experienced martial artists? From what I’ve seen, for the most part a “street fighter” is usually one or more loudmouth guys attacking someone they think they can easily beat. When that person is an experienced martial artists, it usually ends up with him opening cans of whoppass on the street fighters. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-fights-vs-real-fights/502199/35 "2009-07-09T16:55:22Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > What exactly is an “experienced street fighter”? And how are they different from an experienced martial artists? From what I’ve seen, for the most part a “street fighter” is usually one or more loudmouth guys attacking someone they think they can easily beat. When that person is an experienced martial artists, it usually ends up with him opening cans of whoppass on the street fighters. IMO, an experienced street fighter is someone who has been in a number of fights and doesn’t panic in tense situations. In reality though, the real thugs, the real hard men if you will, will never stand up directly a fight another person. I’ve seen experienced martial artists get beaten to within an inch of their lives by a real streetfighter. I saw a professional kickboxer nearly killed on Abbey Street in Dublin when he was stabbed repeatedly by a real street fighter. I’ve been in a few fights when I lived in Dublin and they were unpleasant experiences. I don’t care how good you are at martial arts, having a tinker from Summerhill gut you from behind will take you down very fast. And that’s what streetfighting really is. Being willing to do whatever, whenever to win. It’s not talking back, it’s not standing up and being tough or knowing how to take a punch. It’s hitting first and hitting the hardest and that’s that. Anyone who tells you otherwise doesn’t have @#(@# clue what they are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-fights-vs-real-fights/502199/36 "2009-07-09T17:19:20Z")
With that firmly settled, can we please move on to the Batman vs. Spiderman question? ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-fights-vs-real-fights/502199/37 "2009-07-09T18:00:48Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > [snip]A blow to the nose or genitals may hurt, but it won’t stop many people and does not affect the fighting and locomotion ability of the target. > > Stranger I can kind of see a blow to the nose as not being incapacitating but the genitals? Every time that I’ve been hit in the gonads, it becomes “curl up into a ball on the ground and cough my guts out” time. Even if I were enraged, I don’t think I’d be able to pursue anyone. As to the OP: I was always taught that the first rule in a fight is “If you _must_ fight, hit something soft with something hard.” You don’t see that much in movie fights. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-fights-vs-real-fights/502199/38 "2009-07-09T20:51:37Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > With that firmly settled, can we please move on to the Batman vs. Spiderman question? Spiderman beats him to death in about a second. Much stronger and faster. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-fights-vs-real-fights/502199/39 "2009-07-09T21:02:39Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > Spiderman beats him to death in about a second. Much stronger and faster. Faster than a speeding bullet? More powerful than a locomotive? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-fights-vs-real-fights/502199/40 "2009-07-09T21:31:34Z")
Might want to re-read who’s fighting (unless I’ve just been whooshed myself). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-fights-vs-real-fights/502199.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movie-fights-vs-real-fights/502199.md?page=3)