# Movies in which the evil henchmen aren't completely useless? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 12, 2006, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-in-which-the-evil-henchmen-arent-completely-useless/356480 "2006-05-12T05:29:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-in-which-the-evil-henchmen-arent-completely-useless/356480/21 "2006-05-12T14:26:22Z")
> [@The King of Soup](#): > > About ten years ago Walter Hill did an adaptation of Red Harvest\* in which Christopher Walken played not a boss, but a henchman, a gunman. He died at the end, but as I recall he wasn’t there just to get walked over. > > \*That wasn’t the title. Evidently I wasn’t paying attention, because that’s _everything_ I remember about the flick, except that it was set in the southwest instead of northern California. Lots of orange-filtered sun on dyed-red dust. I think you’re talking about Last Man Standing , with Bruce Willis. Walken was not a tomato can in that one. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-in-which-the-evil-henchmen-arent-completely-useless/356480/22 "2006-05-12T14:29:34Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > Until _Return of the Jedi_, the Emperor was seen/heard from so little that Vader was (as far as audience perception was concerned) effectively the lead antagonist. If you count (mostly) out-of-sight and out-of-mind superiors, then the original _Lord of the Rings_ example doesn’t really work – Sauron fits that description. Wasn’t Vader subordinate to Govenor Tarkin in the first Star Wars? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-in-which-the-evil-henchmen-arent-completely-useless/356480/23 "2006-05-12T15:00:13Z")
In _Hellboy_, Kroenen and Ilsa (the assassin and the girl) were very deadly henchmen, Kroenen especially. Sammael too, if you want to count him as such. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-in-which-the-evil-henchmen-arent-completely-useless/356480/24 "2006-05-12T15:05:14Z")
> [@FlyingDragonFan](#): > > Were you watching the same _Riddick_ I was? The Necros were cool, for sure, but Riddick walked all over them, especially on the surface of Crematoria. They’re the definition of useless flunkies, anonymous and easily defeated. Well, yeah, Riddick walked all over them, but a fair portion of the movie is spent explaining why Riddick is so awesome. I wsa thinking more about the fact that they pretty much kick the crap out of everybody else. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-in-which-the-evil-henchmen-arent-completely-useless/356480/25 "2006-05-12T15:08:15Z")
Gary Busey’s character in Lethal Weapon certainly held his own as menacing & tough, until the final fight scene Most of the head henchman in the Bond flicks also do quite nicely until they face Bond Darth Maul also did pretty well against Qui-Gonn Jin ---
**Author:** ![FlyingDragonFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c89c15/32.png) [@FlyingDragonFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingDragonFan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-in-which-the-evil-henchmen-arent-completely-useless/356480/26 "2006-05-12T15:25:39Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Well, yeah, Riddick walked all over them, but a fair portion of the movie is spent explaining why Riddick is so awesome. I wsa thinking more about the fact that they pretty much kick the crap out of everybody else. Good point. I guess Helion Prime’s flunkies were even more useless. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-in-which-the-evil-henchmen-arent-completely-useless/356480/27 "2006-05-12T15:57:29Z")
The Imperial war machine very effectively rolled over the best the Rebels had to offer on Hoth. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-in-which-the-evil-henchmen-arent-completely-useless/356480/28 "2006-05-12T16:48:23Z")
Does the Bolivian Army in _Butch Cassidy and Sundance Kid_ count? Or E.H. Harriman’s goons, who earlier kill all of Butch and Sundance’s gang, track them relentlessly and force them to jump off a cliff into the river? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-in-which-the-evil-henchmen-arent-completely-useless/356480/29 "2006-05-12T17:43:26Z")
> [@C K Dexter Haven](#): > > The problem is, of course, that in most heroic/adventure movies, you don’t want any of the main characters to die. > > I propose that the Indians in many of the westerns of the 30s through 50s are “henchmen.” They’re certainly (often) portrayed as “menacing horde,” much the same as stormtroopers or orcs, and often led by a rogue leader (such as in SHE WORE A YELLOW RIBBON). In many such movies, the heroes could fend of an attacking army. However, there were plenty of cases where the Indians were a very effective menace, and the hero’s side-kick or some secondary character are killed. > > Examples of Indians as effective “henchmen”: > > - In the John Wayne/John Ford STAGECOACH (1939): The stagecoach riders are able to survive a major Comanche attack only because the cavalry comes over the hill at the last minute. The stagecoach driver (comic character Andy Devine) is wounded and the southern gentleman (John Carridine) is killed. > - In the John Wayne/Howard Hawks RED RIVER (1948): The entire wagon train is wiped out, although offscreen, and John Wayne’s fiance is killed. They were pretty effective in _Fort Apache_. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-in-which-the-evil-henchmen-arent-completely-useless/356480/30 "2006-05-12T19:29:45Z")
> [@Bill Door](#): > > I think you’re talking about Last Man Standing , with Bruce Willis. Walken was not a tomato can in that one. I could be COMPLETELY wrong about this but isn’t Red Harvest VERY different. It’s about a mining town and a murder isn’t? “Last Man Standing” is Yojimbo/A Fistful of Dollars in prohibition. (or is Red Harvest the original of those two?) And Walken has the best line in the movie (I think this is it) “I don’t want to die in Texas. Chicago maybe. But not Texas.” RE: Stormtroopers on Endor. This battle is actually pretty interesting and usually completely misremembered even by big Star Wars fans. The Empire is SLAUGHTERING the Ewoks for most of the battle. It’s not until Chewie commandeers the AT-ST does the tide of the battle change. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-in-which-the-evil-henchmen-arent-completely-useless/356480/31 "2006-05-12T20:14:41Z")
> [@Push You Down](#): > > RE: Stormtroopers on Endor. This battle is actually pretty interesting and usually completely misremembered even by big Star Wars fans. The Empire is SLAUGHTERING the Ewoks for most of the battle. It’s not until Chewie commandeers the AT-ST does the tide of the battle change. You sure? I don’t remember enjoying those scenes, and I would have if I’d seen a lot of dead Ewoks. ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-in-which-the-evil-henchmen-arent-completely-useless/356480/32 "2006-05-12T20:19:58Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > You sure? I don’t remember enjoying those scenes, and I would have if I’d seen a lot of dead Ewoks. Well there’s some footage of the Ewoks retreating, and one scene in particular where Wicket and his crew duck and cover near an explosion, then Wicket gets up and tries to tug his buddy along, but his buddy’s dead, and Wicket lets out a little mewl. Then Wicket and his friends eat the remains. Yub yub. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-in-which-the-evil-henchmen-arent-completely-useless/356480/33 "2006-05-12T21:35:57Z")
…It’s not Wicket… but yeah … everything else was spot on. 🙂 * * * The Rebels get caught in the base and are marched out and you see all the Stormtroopers and whzt nots waiting around… then the Ewoks attack and after the momentary surprise of “Holy shit teddy bears are throwing shit at us.” The Imperial troops just start blasting away. The Ewoks start running and the Storm Troopers follow. (a brillant move by the Ewoks since they apparently lead them into the- hastily built or long ago built and just waiting for the right opportunity to use them - traps). The Ewoks are completely ineffectual until Chewie gets the AT-ST. My favorite part is when you see the Stortrooper just throw the Ewok aside. Also remember that although we don’t see them do much in the movie there is also a team of Rebel Commandos fighting to. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-in-which-the-evil-henchmen-arent-completely-useless/356480/34 "2006-05-12T21:37:09Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > If you count the Germans as henchmen/flunkies, then they were pretty lethal in the Dirty Dozen. A lot of the team got killed or injured, they weren’t just orcs/stormtroopers who’s only job was to shoot, miss and die. But a dozen took out fifty or so. Sissies. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-in-which-the-evil-henchmen-arent-completely-useless/356480/35 "2006-05-12T21:41:11Z")
> [@Shirley Ujest](#): > > Just how hard would it be for a castle full of Bad Guys to give the beat down on one forest dwelling smartass waltzing into a party with a deer carcass over his shoulders? Ask Mao Tse-Tung or Fidel Castro or Ho Chi Minh . . . ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-in-which-the-evil-henchmen-arent-completely-useless/356480/36 "2006-05-13T01:18:48Z")
Jaws in the Bond films was a fairly badass henchman. Bond eventually beats him like a drum in each film he appears in, but he’s very tough and lesser heroes generally just run away or die when facing him. Boba Fett was a henchman, and a very tough one. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-in-which-the-evil-henchmen-arent-completely-useless/356480/37 "2006-05-13T01:25:13Z")
The X-Men bad guys. Both movies. ---
**Author:** ![Lizard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@Lizard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lizard)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-in-which-the-evil-henchmen-arent-completely-useless/356480/38 "2006-05-13T01:43:34Z")
In the non-fantasy genre, Al Capone’s henchmen in “The Untouchables” (1986 theater version with Kevin Costner) killed off several of the heroes in pretty brutal ways. In “Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom” Indiana gets his butt kicked by the huge Indian mine guard. The fight only ends because the guard is caught in a machine and killed. A few of Brad Wesley’s men in “Road House” could take Dalton in a fight. But I think one of the points of that movie was that Wesley ruled through intimidation and fear; his henchmen really _were_ just stupid thugs with guns. ---
**Author:** ![Gotterfunken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58956e/32.png) [@Gotterfunken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gotterfunken)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-in-which-the-evil-henchmen-arent-completely-useless/356480/39 "2006-05-13T04:06:10Z")
Thanks for all the responses. Many good counterexamples, from many different genres. War and westerns would certainly qualify (after all, a lot of sci-fi and fantasy flicks are at least partly based on such genres). As for Saruman…his orcs, especially the Uruk-Hai, do put up quite a good fight. One feels that if it weren’t for Gandalf showing up with the Rohirrim, and the Ents attacking Isengard, the orcs would probably have easily overrun our heroes in Helms Deep. I’d consider Saruman (like Darth Vader) above the rank of henchman, even if he’s in allegiance to Sauron. If one were to consider him a henchman to Sauron, he is, admittedly, pretty effective as an orc-manager. But when you consider his one-on-one action, he still fails to impress. So he takes Gandalf captive. And then where does he imprison him? Oh, I know: on the open, top level of Orthanc! There’s no way he can escape from there!!! It’s not like Gandalf is a wizard who can summon anything to help him fly away or anything. Geez! You’d think Saruman would be familiar enough with Middle Earth history to know one thing: the eagles always come to the rescue. Dude, read the _Silmarillion_… read _The Hobbit_…and one pattern that emerges is that the eagles are Tolkien’s deus-ex-machina. I’m sure Radagast the Brown knew about the eagles! I’ll have to rewatch the ROTJ Battle of Endor. I do remember the charred dead Ewok, and the plaintive wail of his comrade. On the other hand, I also remember incompetent biker scouts (perhaps the most useless of all Imperial soldiers, as they could barely pilot their own vehicles–although you have to admit their armor was pretty cool), and the AT-STs getting crushed by and tripped by logs. Maybe all the Imperial defeats happened after Chewie commandeered that AT-ST… the way I remember it, the battle starts out with the Imperials completely bewildered by the Ewok attack, then they regroup and start taking out a couple of teddy bears, but soon enough the battle swings back to the Ewok/Rebel forces and the Imperials are completely overwhelmed. The outcome of the battle, from my perspective, was never in doubt. As for the Battle of Hoth, it seems like the Imperials won mainly through sheer numbers rather than through strategic wit. After all, weren’t almost all of the AT-ATs taken out by the Rebels? I thought I’d throw the Matrix movies into the mix, too. A bit different, since the evil henchmen are basically computer programs, but some of them are quite effective. I especially liked the ghost twins in _The Matrix: Reloaded_. They seemed pretty bad-ass. In _Revolutions_, the machines that attack Zion are fairly scary and ruthless. That would seem to satisfy my request, except that the protagonists in Zion are pretty much unknown characters. While I knew and could root for Neo, Trinity, and Morpheus, I had never encountered the Zion defenders in the previous movies. That made it difficult for me to sympathize with them fully, which seems to be a critical element to actually enjoying a conflict. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-in-which-the-evil-henchmen-arent-completely-useless/356480/40 "2006-05-13T04:50:21Z")
> [@Push You Down](#): > > I could be COMPLETELY wrong about this but isn’t Red Harvest VERY different. It’s about a mining town and a murder isn’t? > “Last Man Standing” is Yojimbo/A Fistful of Dollars in prohibition. (or is Red Harvest the original of those two?) Yes, _Red Harvest_ is the original of the two. It was written by Dashiell Hammett and took place in a mining town (in Idaho IIRC) which is beset by two rival factions. In comes Hammett’s favorite character, the Continental Op (whose real name we never learn), who goes back and forth between the two factions stirring them up until gunplay ensues. A good many bodies are carried off to the local equivalent of boot hill, decent folk get their town back, and the Op rides – er, drives – off to another adventure. First was [_Roadhouse Nights_](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0021305/) in 1930. Hammett gets credit for the novel but the trivia section says it is “loosely based” on his work. I’ve not seen it. In 1960 it was made into _Yojimbo_, screenplay by Akira Kurosawa and Ryuzo Kikushima, with the same basic plot as the novel but set in Japan. In 1964 came _Fistful of Dollars_, directed by Sergio Leone. Ditto, but set in the Southwest. Kurosawa and Kikushima received no credit but are generally regarded as the originators. In 1996 came _Last Man Standing_, set in prohibition-era Texas, screenplay by Walter Hill, story by Kurosawa and Kikushima so I assume it more closely follows _Yojimbo_. The time period would be the closest match to the original _Red Harvest_. Finally, the [movie connections](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055630/movieconnections) section for _Yojimbo_ show that movie being remade five other times besides _Dollars_ and _Last Man_. I don’t know anything about them, but I suspect they aren’t faithful to Hammett’s work either. DD [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-in-which-the-evil-henchmen-arent-completely-useless/356480.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-in-which-the-evil-henchmen-arent-completely-useless/356480.md?page=3)