# Movies that are too clever/convoluted for their own good **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 8, 2008, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-are-too-clever-convoluted-for-their-own-good/459288 "2008-08-08T15:20:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2008, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-are-too-clever-convoluted-for-their-own-good/459288/61 "2008-08-09T17:45:33Z")
I love a lot of the movies mentioned in this thread (especially all the Coen brothers’ movies), so I’m going to feel bad calling out a movie that quite a few people probably thought was genius, but I hated **Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind**. It was such rambling, incoherent garbage that I couldn’t even finish it. Maybe it all got sorted out in the end, but in that case the rest of the movie was a terrible waste of time. I did like the half-naked girls jumping on the bet though. For half a minute that movie rocked. Then it was back to confusing-in-a-really-bad-way-while-I-fall-asleep mode. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2008, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-are-too-clever-convoluted-for-their-own-good/459288/62 "2008-08-09T17:51:35Z")
[QUOTE=DrCube] I love a lot of the movies mentioned in this thread (especially all the Coen brothers’ movies), so I’m going to feel bad calling out a movie that quite a few people probably thought was genius, but I hated **Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind**. [/QUOTE] I remember the photography of that movie making me queasy and giving me a headache. Right after, we saw _Dawn of the Dead_, which calmed me right down. True story. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2008, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-are-too-clever-convoluted-for-their-own-good/459288/63 "2008-08-09T18:28:27Z")
[QUOTE=teela brown] And I _still_ can’t figure out if Bunny Lebowski is in cahoots with the nihilists or not. [/QUOTE] She wasn’t. She left town, and Uli, her nihilist boyfriend, pulled the kidnapping scam without her. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2008, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-are-too-clever-convoluted-for-their-own-good/459288/64 "2008-08-09T19:41:43Z")
[QUOTE=DrCube] I love a lot of the movies mentioned in this thread (especially all the Coen brothers’ movies), so I’m going to feel bad calling out a movie that quite a few people probably thought was genius, but I hated **Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind**. It was such rambling, incoherent garbage that I couldn’t even finish it. Maybe it all got sorted out in the end, but in that case the rest of the movie was a terrible waste of time. I did like the half-naked girls jumping on the bet though. For half a minute that movie rocked. Then it was back to confusing-in-a-really-bad-way-while-I-fall-asleep mode. [/QUOTE] I agree. I still don’t know how that movie ends and I don’t care. It was shite. ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2008, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-are-too-clever-convoluted-for-their-own-good/459288/65 "2008-08-09T21:57:25Z")
[QUOTE=An Gadaí] Link please! I enjoyed this film but was quite confused by the end. [/QUOTE] I don’t think this will help, because it’s not that in-depth, but since I had no clue what was going on in the movie, which I only watched once, I felt it was useful: [WarnerBros.com | Syriana | Movies](http://syrianamovie.warnerbros.com/synopsis.html) [The Wikipedia page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriana) also helped. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2008, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-are-too-clever-convoluted-for-their-own-good/459288/66 "2008-08-10T00:47:18Z")
From reading some of these threads, it seems like what many of us look at as complexity, texture, and depth… many others take for “clever convolution”. Is the adventure of thought and undrawn conclusions within a film so scary and alien that we must label them as negative attributes? ---
**Author:** ![BMax](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bmax/32/4267_2.png) [@BMax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMax)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2008, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-are-too-clever-convoluted-for-their-own-good/459288/67 "2008-08-10T04:43:54Z")
[QUOTE=devilsknew] From reading some of these threads, it seems like what many of us look at as complexity, texture, and depth.. many others take for “clever convolution”. Is the adventure of thought and undrawn conclusions within a film so scary and alien that we must label them as negative attributes? [/QUOTE] That’s what I was wondering, because this thread reads like a list of some of my favorite movies. In fact, I own most of them. I’ve always enjoyed movies that aren’t clear,m that leave situations unresolved and that make you think… ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2008, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-are-too-clever-convoluted-for-their-own-good/459288/68 "2008-08-10T04:46:15Z")
[QUOTE=devilsknew] Is the adventure of thought and undrawn conclusions within a film so scary and alien that we must label them as negative attributes? [/QUOTE] Is it so hard to believe that some of us find some of these movies “bad” instead of “scary” for having undrawn conclusions? ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2008, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-are-too-clever-convoluted-for-their-own-good/459288/69 "2008-08-10T07:19:45Z")
[QUOTE=DrCube] I did like the half-naked girls jumping on the bet though. For half a minute that movie rocked. Then it was back to confusing-in-a-really-bad-way-while-I-fall-asleep mode. [/QUOTE] Just one girl, Kirsten Dunst. The other person jumping was a guy. I’m sure he’d be flattered that you found him hot though. I’ll vote for [Frequency](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0186151/), but that was part of its charm. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2008, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-are-too-clever-convoluted-for-their-own-good/459288/70 "2008-08-10T12:22:14Z")
[QUOTE=devilsknew] From reading some of these threads, it seems like what many of us look at as complexity, texture, and depth.. many others take for “clever convolution”. Is the adventure of thought and undrawn conclusions within a film so scary and alien that we must label them as negative attributes? [/QUOTE] Complicated is not the same as convoluted. There is a point where a film gets too full of different things and twists etc and it’s not so much that such films are scary as hard to follow. I’m happy to expend mental energy taking in what I’m seeing (in fact I don’t generally like mindless films) but there comes a point where the film starts to become inaccessible. _Primer_ is a perfect example of this - I could follow the concept easily enough and got the general gist of what was happening, but what let it down (for me, anyway) was how the makers presented a lot of information without actually verifying what was going on. As the film went on you got more and more lost until by the point where I switched off I genuinely didn’t have any clue what was going on. I don’t consider myself stupid, yet I was completely bamboozled. I looked up one of the geeky websites that breaks down the timeline but it still doesn’t explain why a lot of things were going on and the film clearly didn’t want to make it too easy to work out. I’m not proposing that all films should be spoon fed to us, merely pointing out that there is a line between complicated and convoluted and I think those that are on the latter side are less enjoyable than they could be and turn people off from understanding/enjoying them. If the makers don’t care about them being widely understood/accepted (as I believe is the case with _Primer_ too) then fine. Me - if I write a story I don’t want people to get to the end and go “WTF was that?”. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2008, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-are-too-clever-convoluted-for-their-own-good/459288/71 "2008-08-10T16:32:09Z")
My two pennorth on films already mentioned. Layer Cake totally brilliant movie. 2001,mostly watchable but the ending wasn’t so much clever as a lot of padding as was most of the film if you ever read the short story on which the film was based. Donny Darko one of the worst pieces of tripe I have ever wasted part of my life on watching. What I call being weird for weirds sake,very self consciously so. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2008, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-are-too-clever-convoluted-for-their-own-good/459288/72 "2008-08-10T17:43:54Z")
[QUOTE=Lust4Life] 2001,mostly watchable but the ending wasn’t so much clever as a lot of padding as was most of the film if you ever read the short story on which the film was based. [/QUOTE] That’s not padding; it’s narrative. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2008, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-are-too-clever-convoluted-for-their-own-good/459288/73 "2008-08-10T17:47:18Z")
[QUOTE=devilsknew] From reading some of these threads, it seems like what many of us look at as complexity, texture, and depth.. many others take for “clever convolution”. Is the adventure of thought and undrawn conclusions within a film so scary and alien that we must label them as negative attributes? [/QUOTE] If you think the torrent of “twist” movies from the last ~10 years which feature a main character that is either dead or has multiple personalities\* is complexity, texture, and depth, as opposed to, say, the French new wave, which hasn’t been mentioned here . . . well, let’s just say you’re a target demographic. \*Fight Club Secret Garden Identity The Sixth Sense Haute Tension The Others Hide and Seek ---
**Author:** ![Mahna\_Mahna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47c2d/32.png) [@Mahna\_Mahna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahna_Mahna)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2008, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-are-too-clever-convoluted-for-their-own-good/459288/74 "2008-08-10T17:50:40Z")
For those who are knocking _Eternal Sunshine_, here is a heatfelt recommendation… stay far far away from _The Science of Sleep_. It’s a million times worse. I was all set to love that movie. As far as directors go, I think Michel Gondry is a bloody genius and has an incredible way of visualising a story. I also happen to think Gael Garcia Bernal is the cat’s meow (and also very easy on the eyes). Hell, I actually LIKED Eternal Sunshine, for crying out loud. So why the hell did this movie suck so badly and turn into such a loopy convoluted mess? (for that matter, Gondry failed to win me back with _Be Kind, Rewind_, so at this stage he’s going to have to show up at my door with a bouquet and some really nice chocolates before I bother watching any more of his movies) ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2008, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-are-too-clever-convoluted-for-their-own-good/459288/75 "2008-08-10T19:17:29Z")
OK, I love 2001. I love Star Trek. But the first Star Trek movie was too 2001-ey for me! I’ve seen & love all the David Lynch films from Eraserhead to Wild at Heart/Twin Peaks FWWM. From what I’ve heard of the later ones, I haven’t got the nerve up to watch them. EVEN THOUGH I HAVE M DR & LOST HWY! I have watched Industrial Symphony & want to see The Straight Story. Just haven’t seen TSS anywhere to buy yet. And I will say this about TP-FWWM’s convolutions. The first time I saw it in the theatre (yeah, I went twice), a couple of reels were out of order. But I wasn’t sure at first that wasn’t deliberate until I saw it the second time in the right order. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2008, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-are-too-clever-convoluted-for-their-own-good/459288/76 "2008-08-10T21:11:06Z")
[QUOTE=Mahna Mahna] For those who are knocking _Eternal Sunshine_, here is a heatfelt recommendation… stay far far away from _The Science of Sleep_. It’s a million times worse. I was all set to love that movie. As far as directors go, I think Michel Gondry is a bloody genius and has an incredible way of visualising a story. I also happen to think Gael Garcia Bernal is the cat’s meow (and also very easy on the eyes). Hell, I actually LIKED Eternal Sunshine, for crying out loud. So why the hell did this movie suck so badly and turn into such a loopy convoluted mess? [/QUOTE] This just goes to show how subjective all this is. I liked The Science of Sleep. Yes it was a an unnecessarily complicated mess, but it had heart and a whimsical charm that Eternal Sunshine lacked. ---
**Author:** ![Hazle\_Weatherfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Hazle\_Weatherfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazle_Weatherfield)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2008, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-are-too-clever-convoluted-for-their-own-good/459288/77 "2008-08-10T22:26:09Z")
[QUOTE=control-z] _Vanilla Sky_. The movie sucked, there was so much dream-within-a-dream stuff I just gave up on it. [/QUOTE] Thank You! ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2008, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-are-too-clever-convoluted-for-their-own-good/459288/78 "2008-08-11T00:28:46Z")
[What Dreams May Come.](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120889/) Boring worthless garbage. [I’m Not There](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0368794/). Seven stories about Bob Dylan, but not really about Bob Dylan. What the hell? What are they trying to do here and how is it related to Dylan? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2008, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-are-too-clever-convoluted-for-their-own-good/459288/79 "2008-08-11T01:13:03Z")
[QUOTE=Justin\_Bailey] I can appreciate the twist in Mulholland Drive, but the fact that it was literally tacked on by Lynch after ABC told him they didn’t want to make his show irritates me. Because all the Mulholland Drive fans are quick to point out how everything is connected between both “worlds” of the movie. But they’re not. It’s something Lynch just pulled out of his ass to finish off the movie. [/quote] Waitaminute, waitaminute. I liked MD, and felt I pretty much “got” it, but I don’t remember anything about a twist, or there being two “worlds.” Granted its been years since I’ve seen it. But can you explain what you’re referring to? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2008, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-are-too-clever-convoluted-for-their-own-good/459288/80 "2008-08-11T01:16:27Z")
[QUOTE=Cisco] This just goes to show how subjective all this is. I liked The Science of Sleep. Yes it was a an unnecessarily complicated mess, but it had heart and a whimsical charm that Eternal Sunshine lacked. [/QUOTE] It should be noted, though, that the heart and whimsical charm turn out to be a bit of misdirection, or anyway, they are undermined as the movie progresses. But yeah, I think it’s a good movie. I _don’t_ think it’s a story that was worth telling, but I _do_ think it was told very well. So the movie’s at least decent. -FrL- [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-are-too-clever-convoluted-for-their-own-good/459288.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-are-too-clever-convoluted-for-their-own-good/459288.md?page=5)