# Movies that don't tell you who the villain is **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 3, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-dont-tell-you-who-the-villain-is/627060 "2012-07-03T03:22:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![PSXer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/48db29/32.png) [@PSXer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PSXer)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-dont-tell-you-who-the-villain-is/627060/21 "2012-07-03T20:37:01Z")
If you’ve seen the first movie and you see Arnold following John Connor around you’re gonna assume he is the bad guy at first. I guess if you only watch T2 there’s no indication that Arnold is a bad guy then ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-dont-tell-you-who-the-villain-is/627060/22 "2012-07-03T20:50:13Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The people to whom the specific identity of the villain has any prior meaning already know who the “red-faced guy” is in a Captain America story. For those who don’t, it’s not really going to matter. He out-Nazis the Nazis, that’s what you need to know. As an aside, Hugo Weaving really doesn’t mind acting while unrecognizable. Captain America wasn’t as bad as V for Vendetta though, were you see his face exactly zero times. The OP reads to me like asking for more recognizable characters. Iron Man is the same, sort of amalgamated characters I’d never heard of, but then I don’t think I read Iron Man as a kid. But I think it would be very corny or campy if they had a text flyby that says “The lizard monster is Rhys Ifans as… The Lizard!” I am also not too familiar with Batman villains beyond the biggest, but I knew it’s Bane because the media speculation rams it down your throat (always mention of back-breaking). ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-dont-tell-you-who-the-villain-is/627060/23 "2012-07-03T20:58:07Z")
> [@PSXer](#): > > If you’ve seen the first movie and you see Arnold following John Connor around you’re gonna assume he is the bad guy at first. I guess if you only watch T2 there’s no indication that Arnold is a bad guy then The big tip off is that the Terminator doesn’t kill anyone to get his clothes. He does break an arm.. but that’s a far cry from punching through someone. Also the jokey “Bad to the bone” playing once you see him leather-ed up. If they had just cut that scene, there would have been no indication that Arnold wasn’t still a “bad” terminator. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-dont-tell-you-who-the-villain-is/627060/24 "2012-07-03T22:39:33Z")
> [@AaronX](#): > > I’ve noticed a pattern with movies that don’t tell you who the villain is beforehand e.g. in the trailers. They generally don’t turn out so well, and tend to be underwhelming. > > Look at the latest Spider-Man’s trailer. So the villain is… a reptile? Why aren’t they telling you who he is? To be mysterious, or is he too boring to be in the trailer? Same with Captain America. Ok the enemy is some red faced guy wearing a human mask. > > Compared to say, Spider-Man 2, which prominently features Doc Ock in the trailer, The Avengers, where you know they’re fighting Loki (and his army), and even Thor, where you at least get to see Loki. Well, any Spidey fan, seeing the trailer, knows that the villain is Curt Conners, the Lizard. It hadn’t occurred to me before now that there was the slightest mystery about it. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-dont-tell-you-who-the-villain-is/627060/25 "2012-07-03T22:42:04Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The people to whom the specific identity of the villain has any prior meaning already know who the “red-faced guy” is in a Captain America story. For those who don’t, it’s not really going to matter. Concur. ---
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-dont-tell-you-who-the-villain-is/627060/26 "2012-07-03T22:57:21Z")
In Captain America, the “bad guy” was really the Nazis. Hydra and the Red Skull were essentially a stand-in. It’s a movie about individualism and modesty and moral uprightness defeating a power-mad, glory-obsessed facist. Developing the Red Skull more would have been counterproductive; you don’t want to humanize a symbol. See also: director Joe Johnston’s _other_ action movie, “The Rocketeer,” which explores much of the same ground. One of the underappreciated secrets of the Marvel universe movies is that they’ve been employing very talented directors who’ve made careers out of exploring the themes represented by the characters. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-dont-tell-you-who-the-villain-is/627060/27 "2012-07-03T23:11:02Z")
> [@AaronX](#): > > But surely the movie isn’t pitched solely at Spidey fans? So? It’s not like non-Spidey fans would’ve known any other villain any better. Did they know the Green Goblin, Doctor Octopus, Sandman, or Venom before the Raimi series? Spider-Man’s the selling point, who he fights doesn’t really matter unless you’re a Spidey fan, and if you are, then it’s quite clear he’s fighting the Lizard. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-dont-tell-you-who-the-villain-is/627060/28 "2012-07-04T18:14:30Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > The big tip off is that the Terminator doesn’t kill anyone to get his clothes. He does break an arm.. but that’s a far cry from punching through someone. > > If they had just cut that scene, there would have been no indication that Arnold wasn’t still a “bad” terminator. There are a few other hints as well. – The T-1000 kills a police officer with one punch to the stomach to take his clothes. Compare with Kyle’s rather difficult shenanigans to obtain clothes in the first Terminator movie. – The T-1000 has to look John up in the police database to find him. The Terminator knows where he lives because John in the future told him. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-dont-tell-you-who-the-villain-is/627060/29 "2012-07-04T21:09:47Z")
> [@MG-42](#): > > eh the kind of movies you refer to are popcorn movies where the story does not matter and thr CGI runs supreme. How about Memento, was that a problem? Funny, Memento was my thought when I saw the title. An argument can be made that every character in that movie is a villain. ---
**Author:** ![Sister\_Vigilante](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Sister\_Vigilante](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sister_Vigilante)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-dont-tell-you-who-the-villain-is/627060/30 "2012-07-04T23:25:37Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > There are a few other hints as well. > > – The T-1000 kills a police officer with one punch to the stomach to take his clothes. Compare with Kyle’s rather difficult shenanigans to obtain clothes in the first Terminator movie. > > – The T-1000 has to look John up in the police database to find him. The Terminator knows where he lives because John in the future told him. Why does he need to steal clothes when in every other scene he just makes his own? How does he get through the time travel with exactly NO living tissue on or in his body? Why does he show up naked? I think they were trying to make it ambiguous from the start and the trailers did screw that up. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-dont-tell-you-who-the-villain-is/627060/31 "2012-07-04T23:34:14Z")
> [@AaronX](#): > > I’ve noticed a pattern with movies that don’t tell you who the villain is beforehand e.g. in the trailers. They generally don’t turn out so well, and tend to be underwhelming. _The Usual Suspects_ doesn’t tell you who the villain is until the very last shot of the film. “Underwhelming” does not describe it in any way, shape, or form. ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-dont-tell-you-who-the-villain-is/627060/32 "2012-07-04T23:41:44Z")
> [@Ponch8](#): > > In Steven Spielburg’s _Duel_ (his first movie IIRC), they never show the face of the villain. It’s a truck driver who keeps trying to run Dennis Weaver’s car off the road, push it into a moving train, etc. I remember that one! scary, too. wonder if it would still be scary this many decades later? ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-dont-tell-you-who-the-villain-is/627060/33 "2012-07-05T00:04:57Z")
**Black Christmas** (1974) - it has a great twist ending where in the very final shot, another murder occurs even after the supposed killer is "caught"This is the same movie which popularized the cliche of “threatening phone calls coming from another line inside the house”. Great horror movie all around and Margot Kidder is in it! ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-dont-tell-you-who-the-villain-is/627060/34 "2012-07-05T00:45:15Z")
> [@Sister\_Vigilante](#): > > Why does he need to steal clothes when in every other scene he just makes his own? The T-1000 is never shown stealing clothes. The only item he steals is the gun (which he can’t replicate). The next time we see him, he’s wearing clothes. > [@](#): > > How does he get through the time travel with exactly NO living tissue on or in his body? I didn’t build the fucking thing! But then, I don’t know tech stuff. But I think the liquid metal “hardens” as living tissue when he finalizes a morph. Remember, he was able to disappear into the floor of the mental hospital and the guard never thought the floor felt funny. > [@](#): > > Why does he show up naked? I think they were trying to make it ambiguous from the start and the trailers did screw that up. You go naked. Something about the field generated by a living organism. Nothing dead will go. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-dont-tell-you-who-the-villain-is/627060/35 "2012-07-05T04:27:03Z")
Cruising starring Al Pachino, even after the “killer” is apprehended murders are being committed. We get hints it may be Pachino himself or someone else, then in the final shot right before the credits roll Pachino’s girlfriend puts on the hat and sunglasses he wears to the clubs and assumes the killer’s sneer. 😕😕 The director has said he has no clue who the killer is. ---
**Author:** ![AaronX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7bcc69/32.png) [@AaronX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AaronX)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-dont-tell-you-who-the-villain-is/627060/36 "2012-07-05T04:56:12Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > So? It’s not like non-Spidey fans would’ve known any other villain any better. Did they know the Green Goblin, Doctor Octopus, Sandman, or Venom before the Raimi series? Spider-Man’s the selling point, who he fights doesn’t really matter unless you’re a Spidey fan, and if you are, then it’s quite clear he’s fighting the Lizard. My logic is: it’s an action movie, so it’s selling action and special effects. The trailer should introduce the most exciting scenes. If the villain isn’t exciting enough to be in the trailer, then he’s probably not very exciting. Or maybe that’s 2004 thinking and the trend for trailers now is to have a bit of mystery. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-dont-tell-you-who-the-villain-is/627060/37 "2012-07-05T06:58:37Z")
> [@AaronX](#): > > My logic is: it’s an action movie, so it’s selling action and special effects. The trailer should introduce the most exciting scenes. If the villain isn’t exciting enough to be in the trailer, then he’s probably not very exciting. Or maybe that’s 2004 thinking and the trend for trailers now is to have a bit of mystery. If the only reason to see the movie is the special effects, and they put all the good effects in the trailer, why would you bother seeing the movie? ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-dont-tell-you-who-the-villain-is/627060/38 "2012-07-05T07:14:02Z")
On the other hand it is possible to go too far I think, the press and trailers for Cargo make it look like a low budget murder mystery on a space ship. I mean this movie is indie to start with and the trailer just makes it look even more niche, in fact the murder leads to much bigger revelations and yes they do leave the ship and there are special effects. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-dont-tell-you-who-the-villain-is/627060/39 "2012-07-05T10:39:30Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > If the only reason to see the movie is the special effects, and they put all the good effects in the trailer, why would you bother seeing the movie? Agreed, there have been way too many cases where, if you’d seen the trailer, there was no reason to go see the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Beastly\_Rotter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@Beastly\_Rotter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beastly_Rotter)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-dont-tell-you-who-the-villain-is/627060/40 "2012-07-05T11:44:32Z")
> [@Ponch8](#): > > In Steven Spielburg’s _Duel_ (his first movie IIRC), they never show the face of the villain. It’s a truck driver who keeps trying to run Dennis Weaver’s car off the road, push it into a moving train, etc. I always figured that the villain was the truck, not the driver. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-dont-tell-you-who-the-villain-is/627060.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-dont-tell-you-who-the-villain-is/627060.md?page=3)