# Movies: The Bechdel Test **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 10, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-the-bechdel-test/690484 "2014-06-10T16:22:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-the-bechdel-test/690484/21 "2014-06-10T19:17:12Z")
I’d wager that Disney has done pretty well with this… Mary Poppins, Sound of Music, Little Mermaid, Princess Diaries, Cinderella, the Incredibles… ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-the-bechdel-test/690484/22 "2014-06-10T19:31:49Z")
Woody Allen movies would pass very well. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-the-bechdel-test/690484/23 "2014-06-10T19:50:26Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > I’d wager that Disney has done pretty well with this… Mary Poppins, Sound of Music, Little Mermaid, Princess Diaries, Cinderella, the Incredibles… Little Mermaid? Off the top of my head, when? Unless you count Ariel and Ursula’s meeting to be about their bargain and not about Eric. (Which it both is and isn’t.) ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-the-bechdel-test/690484/24 "2014-06-10T19:51:42Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > So does **Tangled** – the conversations between Rapunzel and her mother. > > . And **Brave** , come to think of it. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-the-bechdel-test/690484/25 "2014-06-10T19:54:36Z")
[Here’s a list](http://bechdeltest.com/?list=all) of the movies that pass. I check most of those named here and they all pass except _Jerry McGuire_ and _Coal Miner’s Daughter_, though I quibble with that one. I didn’t check all Woody Allen movies but _Annie Hall_ is on there. But, as Zsofia (and most of you) points out, it’s not about evaluating individual movies, it’s about becoming aware of how women are portrayed overall. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-the-bechdel-test/690484/26 "2014-06-10T20:26:40Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > And **Brave** , come to think of it. And _Frozen_, certainly. Most of the movie deals with the relationship between two sisters. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-the-bechdel-test/690484/27 "2014-06-10T20:37:41Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > I’m somewhat surprised that, with as well known as the Bechdel test is becoming, more directors don’t throw in a scene just for the sake of passing the test. Which would be completely missing the point, I know, but still… I wonder how long until some body makes a movie where the only conversation two women have is about the test. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-the-bechdel-test/690484/28 "2014-06-10T21:25:14Z")
Also, I don’t think talking to female children should count. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-the-bechdel-test/690484/29 "2014-06-10T21:40:13Z")
I generally roll my eyes at the Bechdel test, mainly because it’s not unusual for movies targeted to women to have poorly drawn male characters, either. However, I was watching The Cave on cable the other day (mainly because Piper Perabo and Lena Heady are in it, and it made me nostalgic for Imagine Me & You) and this movie was almost comically awful in terms of the Bechdel test. It could be held up as exhibit A in how casual and ingrained it is to have poorly drawn female characters. > [@Ellen\_Cherry](#): > > Why are women so frequently relegated to supporting roles for men in action films? Yeah, and why aren’t war movies full of platoons of women, and why aren’t mafia movies about groups of women, and… ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-the-bechdel-test/690484/30 "2014-06-10T21:52:42Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Yeah, and why aren’t war movies full of platoons of women Well, it depends on the war, of course. Certainly in superhero or sci-fi movies set in imaginary cultures, there’s no _a priori_ reason why there couldn’t be lots of female soldiers and/or action heroes. I think the practical reason from the filmmakers’ point of view is that male viewers just are less comfortable or less ready to identify with female main characters in action movies. There can be a female sidekick or two, as long as they’re hot-looking, but the action has to center on male characters. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-the-bechdel-test/690484/31 "2014-06-10T22:02:49Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, it depends on the war, of course. Certainly in superhero or sci-fi movies set in imaginary cultures, there’s no _a priori_ reason why there couldn’t be lots of female soldiers and/or action heroes. > > I think the practical reason from the filmmakers’ point of view is that male viewers just are less comfortable or less ready to identify with female main characters in action movies. There can be a female sidekick or two, as long as they’re hot-looking, but the action has to center on male characters. There’s also the fact that in terms of any society, it’s smarter to send your males to war instead of your females because males are more expendable. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-the-bechdel-test/690484/32 "2014-06-10T22:44:13Z")
Someone added a corollary to the test. The female conservation must be at least 60 seconds. Not sure if it that’s included in lists of which movies pass and which don’t ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-the-bechdel-test/690484/33 "2014-06-10T22:46:17Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > There’s also the fact that in terms of any society, it’s smarter to send your males to war instead of your females because males are more expendable. Why (in your view) are men more expendable than women? ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-the-bechdel-test/690484/34 "2014-06-10T23:49:07Z")
> [@B.Serum](#): > > Why (in your view) are men more expendable than women? A woman has to survive for a couple of years to guarantee a viable child (pregnancy plus breastfeeding). A man has to survive only about 7 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-the-bechdel-test/690484/35 "2014-06-10T23:51:17Z")
What does that have to do with expendability? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-the-bechdel-test/690484/36 "2014-06-10T23:57:57Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Yeah, and why aren’t war movies full of platoons of women, and why aren’t mafia movies about groups of women, and… Well you’ll note that most war movies are anti-war films (at least, these days) yet they’re almost all about soldiers. The best anti-war movie I know is Grave of the Fireflies, which is about the victims of war. Making an anti-war film about soldiers makes as much sense as making an anti-genocide movie about the train engineers who were transporting people around. But, presumably, there’s viewed as being a big market for male viewers, so everything has to have lots of explosions, fighting, badassery, and brotherly spirit despite how little sense it makes. And you could probably make a decent movie that’s just as hard-hitting and ruthless as mafia films if you made a movie about a brothel and the lead madame coking her girls up, poisoning the competition, etc. You might not get as many gunshots, but more nudity, so not a bad trade-off. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-the-bechdel-test/690484/37 "2014-06-11T00:02:10Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > There’s also the fact that in terms of any society, it’s smarter to send your males to war instead of your females because males are more expendable. _Whaaaaaaaat_ the _fuuuuuuuuuuck_? ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-the-bechdel-test/690484/38 "2014-06-11T00:15:17Z")
I’d be willing to bet that **Dredd** passes. Neither of the females in the movie were girly wallflowers, and I seriously doubt any conversation between the murderous Ma-Ma or the psychic rookie cop involved talking about boys. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-the-bechdel-test/690484/39 "2014-06-11T00:34:48Z")
Here’s one problem with tokenism, whether it’s women, minorities, whatever: that token has to be all things for all people. If the lone female character is too bossy, bitchy, smart, dumb, whatever, someone will complain that the show thinks all women are X. Writers often react by making them bland and inoffensive, which is no fun. If you have two of that token they’ll often play up opposite character types. Better, but still not quite there. But in a show where there’s a lot of X you’re free to introduce tons of gradations. > [@B.Serum](#): > > Why (in your view) are men more expendable than women? > [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > _Whaaaaaaaat_ the _fuuuuuuuuuuck_? [Bateman’s principle.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bateman%27s_principle) 100 men + 1 woman = 1 baby 100 women + 1 man = 100 babies Women are the bottleneck. Doesn’t matter much nowadays, but certainly in the not too distant past throwing women away was societal suicide. Let the men die in the wars and mines or hunting or whatever. But yeah, doesn’t really stop you from having an Amazon army in fantasy fiction or a bunch of female pilots or whatever, aside the audience not buying it. ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-the-bechdel-test/690484/40 "2014-06-11T01:03:26Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > …[Bateman’s principle.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bateman%27s_principle) > > 100 men + 1 woman = 1 baby > 100 women + 1 man = 100 babies > > Women are the bottleneck. > > Doesn’t matter much nowadays, but certainly in the not too distant past throwing women away was societal suicide. Let the men die in the wars and mines or hunting or whatever…. Oh, yes… I fully appreciate the biology of human reproduction. I just question people who bring it up to justify the expendability of one gender over another in the time frame that any of us have been alive. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-the-bechdel-test/690484.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-the-bechdel-test/690484.md?page=3)