# Movies where you admire the bad guys' courage **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 5, 2014, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086 "2014-06-05T01:57:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/1 "2014-06-05T01:57:42Z")
I’m not really referring to films where you admire the protagonist because they are so charismatic and/or popular, like Hans Gruber or the Joker. But movies where you’re watching for the star, and unexpectedly start thinking “Hey, the bad guys are doing pretty good, all things considered.” For instance, I was watching **Maleficient** , and admit I admired the king’s mooks/soldiers. They stood their ground against opponents that hopelessly outclassed them, including: Giant terrifying woodland trolls and dragons. They were made of thick wood and strong enough to casually bash or toss around people. But the mooks were staying in the fight with only swords and shields. Then later, a friggin’ fire-breathing winged dragon. Not only battling it, but trying to capture it with chains. Rather than go for a kill, they did the much harder task of trying to muzzle it with chains. While the massive creature was breathing deadly fire and knocking the soldiers around. Then I thought of another: Han in **Enter the Dragon**. They showed Bruce Lee as an unstoppable warrior. He was skilled and quick enough to counter every move by his opponents. He was strong enough to beat back whole hordes without getting so much as hit. So I found myself quite impressed that the 60-year-old villain Han is able to keep up with him. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/2 "2014-06-05T02:33:14Z")
It has always impressed me that Yul Brynner’s Rameses II wasn’t afraid to go up against God when he was pursuing the Israelites leaving Egypt in **The Ten Commandments**. Even after all the Plagues of Egypt, the river turning red, the burning hail, and the freaky Angel of Death, he still goes after them. Then, after being stopped by the Pillar of Fire (something that doesn’t happen in the Bible, really), he still insists on sending his troops after them into the Red Sea. Pharaoh was either utterly without fear of an all-powerful deity, or he was extremely stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Draper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Don\_Draper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Draper)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/3 "2014-06-05T02:43:53Z")
One who instantly comes to mind is the viscious Captain Vidal from **Pan’s Labyrinth**. True, he’s a sadistic, misogynist, sociopathic asshole. But you’ve got to give it up for a man who can stitch up a HUGE gaping wound on his own face! Gah! ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/4 "2014-06-05T02:48:49Z")
> [@Don\_Draper](#): > > One who instantly comes to mind is the viscious Captain Vidal from **Pan’s Labyrinth**. True, he’s a sadistic, misogynist, sociopathic asshole. But you’ve got to give it up for a man who can > > stitch up a HUGE gaping wound on his own face! Gah! You’re basically describing Anton Chigurh in [No Country for Old Men](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0477348/combined). ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/5 "2014-06-05T02:51:07Z")
We’re locked into the moon’s gravitational pull! What do we do? [We die.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U7rOUSvYM8) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/6 "2014-06-05T02:52:40Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Pharaoh was either utterly without fear of an all-powerful deity, or he was extremely stupid. Or he was being mind-controlled by said deity. The Bible says God “hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (after the sixth plague IIRC) so that he wouldn’t let the Israelites go. Presumably because he wasn’t \*quite \*done showing off :). ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/7 "2014-06-05T03:01:50Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > We’re locked into the moon’s gravitational pull! What do we do? [We die.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U7rOUSvYM8) “It takes more than a scepter to rule, Xur…even on Rylos.” Lord Kril the commander of the Ko’dan armada LIKE A BOSS. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/8 "2014-06-05T16:26:47Z")
Von Stolberg in [The Enemy Below](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050356/). > [@](#): > > They’ve taken the human out of war. War was different then. It put iron in a country’s backbone, gave them brave memories. And even in defeat it gave them honour. But there is no honour in this war. The memories will be ugly, even if we win. And if we die… we die without God. You’ll like the villain even more considering he (and the movie itself) was the template for the Star Trek episode [Balance of Terror](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0708420/?ref_=ttep_ep15). > [@](#): > > I regret that we meet in this way. You and I are of a kind. In a different reality, I could have called you friend. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/9 "2014-06-05T16:45:10Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > It has always impressed me that Yul Brynner’s Rameses II wasn’t afraid to go up against God when he was pursuing the Israelites leaving Egypt in **The Ten Commandments**. Even after all the Plagues of Egypt, the river turning red, the burning hail, and the freaky Angel of Death, he still goes after them. Then, after being stopped by the Pillar of Fire (something that doesn’t happen in the Bible, really), he still insists on sending his troops after them into the Red Sea. > Pharaoh was either utterly without fear of an all-powerful deity, or he was extremely stupid. I’ve always thought stupid, at least when it came to the Red Sea bit. The oh-so-convenient dying of the pillar of fire, when waters are still parted and the Israelites are more than halfway across, just screams “trap.” Anyway, if he were BRAVE he’d have been leading the way. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/10 "2014-06-05T17:03:46Z")
Jumba, in **Lilo and Stitch**. He knows how dangerous Stitch can be, and goes after him anyway. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/11 "2014-06-05T17:31:06Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > Then I thought of another: > > Han in **Enter the Dragon**. They showed Bruce Lee as an unstoppable warrior. He was skilled and quick enough to counter every move by his opponents. He was strong enough to beat back whole hordes without getting so much as hit. > > So I found myself quite impressed that the 60-year-old villain Han is able to keep up with him. [Authority Equals Asskicking.](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AuthorityEqualsAsskicking) ---
**Author:** ![chinchalinchin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b9bd4f/32.png) [@chinchalinchin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chinchalinchin)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/12 "2014-06-05T17:42:42Z")
Not a movie…yet. I hope one day someone does it justice on the silver screen. The Judge from Blood Meridian by Cormac McCarthy. Crazy, psychopathic, violent and…well, oddly alluring. For example, [QUOTE=The Judge] All other trades are contained in that of war. Is that why war endures? No. It endures because young men love it and old men love it in them. Those that fought, those that did not. That’s your notion. The judge smiled. Men are born for games. Nothing else. Every child knows that play is nobler than work. He knows too that the worth or merit of a game is not inherent in the game itself but rather in the value of that which is put at hazard. Games of chance require a wager to have meaning at all. Games of sport involve the skill and strength of the opponents and the humiliation of defeat and the pride of victory are in themselves sufficient stake because they inhere in the worth of the principals and define them. But trial of chance or trial of worth all games aspire to the condition of war for here that which is wagered swallows up game, player, all. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/13 "2014-06-05T17:58:29Z")
I always felt bad for the Tie Fighter pilot in Return of the Jedi who chases Wedge and the Millenium Falcon all the way through the death star 2.0, into the reactor chamber, and back out, and then gets barely caught in the big explosion right before making it back out to space. That was some damn fine flying! ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/14 "2014-06-05T18:01:22Z")
The Operative in _Serenity,_ who freely admitted he was a monster and had no place in a perfect world, was just doing a job, and doing it well, up until he actually met Malcolm Reynolds, at which point things went all to hell real fast. The Big Tough Guy in most Bond flicks is usually pretty unstoppably awesome, until it’s time for him to die, and then Bond pulls some lame-o dick move like wrapping a chain around his leg or something, and then he gets blowed up. Similar to the big black guy in the leather jacket at the top of the bell tower in Batman–he was kicking Batman’s ass up one side and down the other, and Batman was just soaking it all up because he was wearing armor (pussy). Batman was only able to defeat him by making him think he’d fallen down the tower, then grabbing the guy by the head and pulling him off the edge. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/15 "2014-06-05T21:05:35Z")
Admiral Piett, in _The Empire Strikes Back_ and _Return of the Jedi_. “Prepare a shuttle. I must report this to Lord Vader personally.” ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@Johnny\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Q)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/16 "2014-06-05T21:48:14Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’ve always thought stupid, at least when it came to the Red Sea bit. The oh-so-convenient dying of the pillar of fire, when waters are still parted and the Israelites are more than halfway across, just screams “trap.” Anyway, if he were BRAVE he’d have been leading the way. Then again, he was under The Almighty’s mind whammy, so he really didn’t have a choice. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/17 "2014-06-05T21:55:56Z")
> [@Johnny\_Q](#): > > Then again, he was under The Almighty’s mind whammy, so he really didn’t have a choice. Certainly in the Bible; I don’t know about in the movies. It always seemed to me that the whole deal with the Plagues was unnecessary anyway. If I were Yahweh or even Zeus, I could’ve freed the Hebrews with a maximum of six thunderbolts. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/18 "2014-06-05T22:06:23Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > It has always impressed me that Yul Brynner’s Rameses II wasn’t afraid to go up against God when he was pursuing the Israelites leaving Egypt in **The Ten Commandments**. Even after all the Plagues of Egypt, the river turning red, the burning hail, and the freaky Angel of Death, he still goes after them. Then, after being stopped by the Pillar of Fire (something that doesn’t happen in the Bible, really), he still insists on sending his troops after them into the Red Sea. > Pharaoh was either utterly without fear of an all-powerful deity, or he was extremely stupid. He was brave, but note he didn’t follow into the Red Sea himself. When he returned to Nefertiri, and was ready to kill her, she asked to see the blood of Moses on his sword. He slumped into his throne and said “His god, _ **is** _ God” I don’t think that, up until then, he’d thought of the god of Moses as being real. In spite of everything he’d been able to convince himself it was tricks, magic, or coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/19 "2014-06-05T23:09:22Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > He was brave, but note he didn’t follow into the Red Sea himself. When he returned to Nefertiri, and was ready to kill her, she asked to see the blood of Moses on his sword. > > He slumped into his throne and said “His god, _ **is** _ God” I don’t think that, up until then, he’d thought of the god of Moses as being real. In spite of everything he’d been able to convince himself it was tricks, magic, or coincidence. He didn’t go into the Red Sea not because of cowardice, but, as he said, because it would be simple butchery. After all, he DID lead his troops in pursuit, and stayed right through the whole Pillar of Fire deal. It’s also hard to believe he thought it was all trickery when the Angel of Death explicitly killed all the firstborn, and he himself was halted by the Pillar of Fire. Unless he thought it was the Lawgiver from the Planet of the Apes sequels making those flames in the desert by freaking with his mind, he had a pretty good idea before he confronted Nefertiri, and even before sending his chariots into the Red SEa. ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/20 "2014-06-06T00:10:51Z")
The German officer in **Inglourious Basterds** , who knew he was about to get beaten to death with a baseball bat, but still wouldn’t divulge the location of the German squadron. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086.md?page=2)