# Movies where you admire the bad guys' courage **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 5, 2014, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086 "2014-06-05T01:57:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/81 "2014-06-13T14:46:15Z")
> [@Bakhesh](#): > > How about the Alien Queen? She makes a deal with Ripley, you get to leave with your child, as long as you don’t hurt mine. Ripley betrays her and murders a whole generation of her family, Which was spectacularly stupid, since the fusion reactor was going to blow and Ripley knew it. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/82 "2014-06-13T14:49:06Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Lifeboat. > > Heck, I like the ‘villian’ much more then the other people. They are so freaking stupid. See also Heinrich Dorfmann from [Flight of the Pheonix](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0059183/), everyone else was doomed without him. I actually think of that character as the inspiration behind Lester Malvo from the Series Fargo. ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/83 "2014-06-13T15:21:42Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Oh come on. Sending in the Random Bears as a response to petty offence is totally a thing you’d do. Except they’d have frickin’ laser beams attached to their heads. And they’d be covered in bees. > > Shit was hilarious, but maybe you had to be there. And not like those jeering kids very much. Or the other, totally innocent 40 the bear mauled. Elisha: You think my bare head is funny? Fine! How about you laugh at a **bear’s** head?! The moral of that scripture is to never call a prophet “baldy.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/84 "2014-06-13T15:37:56Z")
> [@Bakhesh](#): > > How about the Alien Queen? She makes a deal with Ripley, you get to leave with your child, as long as you don’t hurt mine. Ripley betrays her and murders a whole generation of her family, so she hangs onto the outside of a spaceship, just to get revenge. Ripley didn’t betray her. As Ripley was starting to leave, the eggs started opening to release facehuggers (to impregnate Ripley & Newt). Ripley gives the Queen a “You stupid cheating bitch” look and then starts torching the joint. The facehuggers only serve one purpose and they weren’t coming out to wave goodbye. ---
**Author:** ![Bakhesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Bakhesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bakhesh)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/85 "2014-06-13T15:45:26Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Ripley didn’t betray her. As Ripley was starting to leave, the eggs started opening to release facehuggers (to impregnate Ripley & Newt). Ripley gives the Queen a “You stupid cheating bitch” look and then starts torching the joint. The facehuggers only serve one purpose and they weren’t coming out to wave goodbye. Only one egg opened, which they pretty much do automatically when there is a human around, but the facehugger didn’t emerge. Ripley’s look was more of a “Did you really think I was gonna let your disgusting family live?” ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/86 "2014-06-13T16:20:15Z")
I disagree with your interpretation but I suppose this isn’t the thread for it and it’s not especially important either. ---
**Author:** ![Bakhesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Bakhesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bakhesh)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/87 "2014-06-13T16:21:12Z")
Fair enough ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/88 "2014-06-14T02:00:46Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > What? Why? It doesn’t take courage to whip a bound man to death, kick an unarmed sober mans face to hamburger when your boys are armed and covering you, and it doesn’t take courage to beat a sick old man senseless. > > Pretend he never mentioned his exploits to the writer, what ‘strength of character’ does his actions show in the movie? After Will Munny shoots Skinny (“Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!” “Well, he should have armed himself if he’s going to decorate his saloon with my friend”) with one barrel of a double-barreled shotgun, he takes aim at Little Bill with the other barrel. Little Bill’s reply: “Alright Gentlemen. He’s got one barrel left. And when he fires that, take out your pistols and shoot him down like the mangy scoundrel he is!” And when Munny _pulls the damned trigger_…well, Little Bill does flinch a bit. But that’s all he does: “Misfire! Kill that son of a bitch!” ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/89 "2014-06-14T02:33:34Z")
Gollum. Walked into Mordor _alone_, unarmed, wearing a loincloth. All the big name heroes bitched and moaned about how it was impossible without an army and that the Nine Walkers were basically a suicide squad, Gollum just beat feet. Then he went back and did it _again_. Say what else you like about the squirmy son-of-a-bitch, he had balls the size of grapefruit. See also Lobelia Sackville-Baggins. Everybody else needed a mounted fucking army _and_ giant pissed-off trees hurling boulders to take on Saruman and his forces; Lobelia just needed an umbrella and a grudge. Respect. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/90 "2014-06-15T22:21:03Z")
No one mentioned Loki? I suppose that may be more ‘sympathize’ than admire courage. He stands at Thors side in the beginning of the first film, on more than one occasion in the comics he is useful in a battle, though more often than not he’s simply being hung by his own petatrd. ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/91 "2014-06-17T22:13:36Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > In Watership Down (both book and animated film) General Woundwort, a rabbit, goes down trying to kill a farm dog after telling his fellow rabbits to stop being wusses about it. Perhaps not a sound strategy but you gotta hand it to the guy that he didn’t let some 70lb predator push him around. The book mentions that Woundwort’s final act is not totally pointless and useless; his attack delays and distracts the dog, allowing a few of his followers whom the dog would otherwise likely have killed, to get clean away, or dash into the Watership burrows and surrender themeselves to the Watership rabbits. Whatever other attributes Woundwort may have – he has guts and to spare, and / or he’s batshit crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/92 "2014-06-17T23:48:21Z")
In the movie _The Scorpion King_ the chief bad guy, Memnon, is a power-crazed and bloodthirsty conqueror. But he’s not a coward, he doesn’t rely on others to protect him or run from danger. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/93 "2014-06-18T13:51:43Z")
> [@vontsira](#): > > The book mentions that Woundwort’s final act is not totally pointless and useless; his attack delays and distracts the dog, allowing a few of his followers whom the dog would otherwise likely have killed, to get clean away, or dash into the Watership burrows and surrender themeselves to the Watership rabbits. Whatever other attributes Woundwort may have – he has guts and to spare, and / or he’s batshit crazy. Also, IIRC, they never found his body. ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/94 "2014-06-19T17:14:13Z")
> [@Dendarii\_Dame](#): > > Also, IIRC, they never found his body. Indeed. Groundsel, officer in the Efrafan expeditionary force who saves his life by surrendering to and subsequently joining the Watership-ites, retains lifelong a high degree of reverence for General Woundwort – who, he insists, did not die; but went off to find elsewhere, rabbits who would be worthy of his leadership. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/95 "2014-06-20T06:38:47Z")
I’m hesitant to wade into a religious debate, but, amazingly, it’s relevant to the thread. > [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I’m saying it’s ancient (even for the Torah/Bible) idiomatic expression. There’s a couple other examples of it, but it’s attempting to do a word-for word translation. The much more likely translations is “Pharaoh hardened his heart against God.” One may quibble over whether that’s reasonable as well - presumably Pharoah didn’t much believe in the Hebrew deity, and the Pharoah in question later claimed that he totally wiped out the Jews. [Paul disagrees with your interpretation](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%209#en-NIV-28173): > [@Romans 9](#): > > 16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. > > 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? That whole chapter is basically about reconciling common sense human notions about justice with an apparently just God whose actions don’t always jibe with those notions. Here Paul raises the obvious objection to the Egypt story: If God \*made \*Pharaoh sin, how can he still blame him for sinning? To which the answer is basically: You are ill-equipped to judge God, so don’t even try. (I know from past experience that most people’s Mileage May Vary, but I actually think that’s a pretty good answer.) ETA: To be fair, the google search that found this also reveals differeing interpretations of “hardened Pharaoh’s heart.” Taking the Bible as a whole, though, this one seems most reasonable and consistent to me. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086/96 "2014-06-20T06:47:59Z")
So, to bring it back around, I think there’s less evidence for the “Pharaoh was a Badass” interpretation than there is for the idea of “Zombie Pharaoh.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-where-you-admire-the-bad-guys-courage/690086.md?page=4)