# Movies with a Jewish hero or tough-guy character **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 5, 2008, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-a-jewish-hero-or-tough-guy-character/455343 "2008-07-05T01:44:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-a-jewish-hero-or-tough-guy-character/455343/101 "2008-07-06T06:44:26Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] And you want to fret about stereotypes? Get back to me the first time Hollywood depicts an erudite Southerner. [/QUOTE] [Here you go!](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1ltGHlRRV8&feature=related) ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-a-jewish-hero-or-tough-guy-character/455343/102 "2008-07-06T06:49:22Z")
PS- A lot of movies tell you very little about the main character- they just don’t have time. I can think of a dozen hit movies in which you never learn anything about the religion/the family/the educational background/the most important life experiences/etc. of the leading characters, and this is intentional. Many people watch movies for escapism and if you make the character _too_ specific then they can’t project themselves into that character. I think that’s why a lot of characters aren’t specifically referred to as Jewish. Speaking of, when’s the last time you saw a gay character who was a tough kickass kinda guy? Val Kilmer in _Kiss Kiss Bang Bang_ comes to mind, but there aren’t that many. C’est la vie. (One thing that irks me about the gay stereotypes on film is that they’re _too_ nice- the guys are great looking, they have great professional jobs, they’re fricking saintly, etc.- that’s why I liked _Queer as Folk_- there were unapologetically gay characters who were nice and who were evil and who were smart and who were stupid, even some who were old and some who weren’t great looking [they were the ones who didn’t have nude scenes].) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-a-jewish-hero-or-tough-guy-character/455343/103 "2008-07-06T06:52:41Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > And you want to fret about stereotypes? Get back to me the first time Hollywood depicts an erudite Southerner. Fred Gwynne’s character on My Cousin Vinny? Jefferson in Paris? All the King’s Men? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-a-jewish-hero-or-tough-guy-character/455343/104 "2008-07-06T06:56:51Z")
True, there aren’t many erudite Southerners in movies. (Is there a movie about Mark Twain?) Nevertheless, I think the overall stereotype of Southerners in movies has more positives than the Jewish one - Southerners are macho, stubbornly proud, great soldiers, can be very charming. On the downside, sometimes they’re portrayed as racist, ignorant hicks with no redeeming values at all. More of a mixed bag, but still not a great record in the movies. Forgive me if my conception of a hero is being someone who’s tough, badass, macho, a good fighter or athlete, not afraid to stand up for himself, et cetera. I know there are positive role models who are intellectuals or artists, and not warriors. However, I was raised with the idea that a “hero” (and, in general, “a good man”) is someone who is a tough guy. My dad comes from a blue collar background and used to box, get into street fights, etc…all my uncles and grandpas are war veterans…I was raised with the idea that a Jew has got to stand up for himself. Nobody ever bullied me even though I was one of the only Jews at most of the schools I attended, because they knew I would give them a bloody nose for their trouble. Maybe my conception of a “hero” is philistine. Whatever - I still think it’s the same one shared by most people in America. I appreciate all the input of **Sampiro** and others, as always, but I just see it differently, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-a-jewish-hero-or-tough-guy-character/455343/105 "2008-07-06T08:53:25Z")
I should add - I also like Jewish characters who are not necessarily hardass guys or fighters, but wisecracking funny guys who are _not_ nebbishy dorks in the Ben Stiller mold. A great example - Boone, from Animal House. Boone is his nickname, his real name is Schoenstein. He’s played by Peter Riegert, who’s Jewish. Boone isn’t a big guy or a strong guy or a tough guy, but he’s funny, charming, and likable. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-a-jewish-hero-or-tough-guy-character/455343/106 "2008-07-06T15:14:21Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] I knew this would be a losing battle from the moment I posted the OP. The perceptions of Jews are just too deeply ingrained. I knew I’d get far too many posts disagreeing with my premise, and not enough posts actually offering up examples of Jewish heroes, particularly within the past 15 years or so. [/QUOTE] You’ve been given more than enough examples, at this point you’re just clinging to a beloved preconception which you can only sustain through goalpost-moving. Now you’re using the last 15 years as a benchmark, but you _still_ use Woody Allen as the nebbish archetype? I’d guess that Allen’s popularity started with _Take the Money and Run_ (1969), peaked with _Annie Hall_ (1977) and has irreversibly slid since _Hannah and Her Sisters_ (1986). If Allen counts as a negative, I figure you have no reason to discount Jewish protagonists over the same era, unless you’re just trying to preserve your premise. ---
**Author:** ![burundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@burundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burundi)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-a-jewish-hero-or-tough-guy-character/455343/107 "2008-07-06T16:06:19Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > BTW, if you want some books that feature bad ass Jews, have you read any Michael Chabon? Two books in particular you should check out: Gentlemen of the Road (Working title: Jews with Swords) and The Yiddish Policemen’s Union. Hell, yeah. I just finished both of these, and they’re _awesome_. I wold my husband that if we ever have twins, I’m naming them Zelikman and Amram, after the main characters in _Gentlemen of the Road_. > [@Sampiro](#): > > Speaking of, when’s the last time you saw a gay character who was a tough kickass kinda guy? Omar on _The Wire_ is totally kick-ass (terrorizes drug dealers with a shotgun) and totally gay. He’s my favorite character on the show. I agree with you, though, you don’t see too many portrayals of gay tough guys. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-a-jewish-hero-or-tough-guy-character/455343/108 "2008-07-06T16:10:59Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] And you want to fret about stereotypes? Get back to me the first time Hollywood depicts an erudite Southerner. [/QUOTE] \*\*The Prince of Tides Conrack:The Water is Wide Silence of the Lambs \*\*(Agent Starling) **The Patriot Primary Colors Gone With the Wind Grace Under Fire The Closer** ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-a-jewish-hero-or-tough-guy-character/455343/109 "2008-07-06T16:52:41Z")
[QUOTE=burundi] I agree with you, though, you don’t see too many portrayals of gay tough guys. [/QUOTE] There were those two guys on _Seinfeld_ who muscled Kramer out of an armoire. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-a-jewish-hero-or-tough-guy-character/455343/110 "2008-07-06T17:13:41Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] Speaking of, when’s the last time you saw a gay character who was a tough kickass kinda guy? [/QUOTE] Alex Karras in _Victor/Victoria_ is a mob bodyguard. Yes, he’s sensitive, but he’s not shown to be typically gay froofy-doofy, either. The Rock played another gay mob bodyguard in _Be Cool_. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-a-jewish-hero-or-tough-guy-character/455343/111 "2008-07-06T17:19:24Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] You’ve been given more than enough examples, at this point you’re just clinging to a beloved preconception which you can only sustain through goalpost-moving. Now you’re using the last 15 years as a benchmark, but you _still_ use Woody Allen as the nebbish archetype? I’d guess that Allen’s popularity started with _Take the Money and Run_ (1969), peaked with _Annie Hall_ (1977) and has irreversibly slid since _Hannah and Her Sisters_ (1986). If Allen counts as a negative, I figure you have no reason to discount Jewish protagonists over the same era, unless you’re just trying to preserve your premise. [/QUOTE] I think the Jewish nebbish archetype has been replaced by Ross from “Friends.” Actually I think Woody Allen was actually cooler than Ross, believe it or not. Woody Allen was a dork but at least he was actually somewhat funny, and could play the clarinet. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-a-jewish-hero-or-tough-guy-character/455343/112 "2008-07-06T17:22:55Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] I think the Jewish nebbish archetype has been replaced by Ross from “Friends.” Actually I think Woody Allen was actually cooler than Ross, believe it or not. Woody Allen was a dork but at least he was actually somewhat funny, and could play the clarinet. [/QUOTE] Hey! Ross [played keyboards](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPmQKKZ3xYE), ya know! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-a-jewish-hero-or-tough-guy-character/455343/113 "2008-07-06T17:48:37Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] I think the Jewish nebbish archetype has been replaced by Ross from “Friends.” Actually I think Woody Allen was actually cooler than Ross, believe it or not. Woody Allen was a dork but at least he was actually somewhat funny, and could play the clarinet. [/QUOTE] David Schwimmer somewhat cancelled that when he played an Airborne instructor in the first chapter of _Band of Brothers_. Sure, he was a prick and a martinet and an incompetent, but nebbish… no. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-a-jewish-hero-or-tough-guy-character/455343/114 "2008-07-06T20:27:14Z")
Has anyone mentioned [Bill Goldberg?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Goldberg) Man’s a god. He doesn’t have a huge film career, but he’s never been anything but formidable and tough. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-a-jewish-hero-or-tough-guy-character/455343/115 "2008-07-06T20:54:38Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] David Schwimmer somewhat cancelled that when he played an Airborne instructor in the first chapter of _Band of Brothers_. Sure, he was a prick and a martinet and an incompetent, but nebbish… no. [/QUOTE] He has also played a naval officer in _Flight of the Intruder_, although he was only in there for one scene. He seemed professional, if not terribly excited with his job. He wasn’t around long enough for any other impression to be made other than “Dude! It’s Ross!” ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-a-jewish-hero-or-tough-guy-character/455343/116 "2008-07-06T21:19:14Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] Alex Karras in _Victor/Victoria_ is a mob bodyguard. Yes, he’s sensitive, but he’s not shown to be typically gay froofy-doofy, either. [/QUOTE] But was he also an erudite Southern Jew? I think not, and that’s my point (I think). Actually that was one of my favorite scenes ever up to that point, and in the early 80s it was totally unexpected. “If a man like you can admit he’s gay… then so can I!”, and from Webster’s dad no-less. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-a-jewish-hero-or-tough-guy-character/455343/117 "2008-07-06T21:22:41Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] David Schwimmer somewhat cancelled that when he played an Airborne instructor in the first chapter of _Band of Brothers_. Sure, he was a prick and a martinet and an incompetent, but nebbish… no. [/QUOTE] In real life that [character’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Sobel) son was guest of honor (for the non veterans obviously) at an EZ Company reunion. He really was disliked by the unit but I think they did credit him with making them tough. (The most horrible scene to watch was when he had them gorge on spaghetti {sort of- the sauce was just ketchup and hamburger} and then when they were full go on a surprise run in the Georgia summer but you can also understand why it’s necessary for them to prepare for such moments. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-a-jewish-hero-or-tough-guy-character/455343/118 "2008-07-06T21:23:18Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] But was he also an erudite Southern Jew? I think not, and that’s my point (I think). [/QUOTE] See, though, I can throw Truman Capote at you and get two out of three on that one… Or else we’ll have to go looking for a car with bumper stickers of the Confederate flag, the rainbow flag, the Israeli flag and the Harvard seal. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-a-jewish-hero-or-tough-guy-character/455343/119 "2008-07-06T21:29:31Z")
[QUOTE=levdrakon] Has anyone mentioned [Bill Goldberg?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Goldberg) Man’s a god. He doesn’t have a huge film career, but he’s never been anything but formidable and tough. [/QUOTE] Now _there’s_ an erudite tough-guy Southern Jew! ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-a-jewish-hero-or-tough-guy-character/455343/120 "2008-07-07T00:04:17Z")
How many nebbish, nerdy black characters are there? Except for Erkle, I can’t think of any. We’re invisible, man! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-a-jewish-hero-or-tough-guy-character/455343.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-a-jewish-hero-or-tough-guy-character/455343.md?page=7)