# Movies with complicated, hard-to-follow plots **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 31, 2006, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-complicated-hard-to-follow-plots/386217 "2006-12-31T15:58:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-complicated-hard-to-follow-plots/386217/41 "2007-01-01T07:43:15Z")
**Campion:** > [@](#): > > But, of course, it makes me wonder: was it a brilliant film, suggesting even to the end an alternate plot? Or was it sloppy filmmaking, that they didn’t realize that they could have been telling an entirely different story? I think probably both. ---
**Author:** ![Phantom\_Dennis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/51bf81/32.png) [@Phantom\_Dennis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phantom_Dennis)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-complicated-hard-to-follow-plots/386217/42 "2007-01-01T08:18:38Z")
Regarding _Brick_: What gives you guys the impression that the Brain was behind the murder? I never picked up this vibe, although in retrospect it would’ve made a fascinating twist. For me, the mystery was fairly straightforward – the femme fatale character stole the brick from the Pin and orchestrated the murder of the protagonist’s ex-girlfriend because she happened to be a witness. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-complicated-hard-to-follow-plots/386217/43 "2007-01-01T08:54:50Z")
[QUOTE=cmkeller] Minority Report. Plot quite complicated. [/QUOTE] I’ve seen this film twice now and I still have problems trying to work out how the scenario that starts the main plot off could actually be engineered by someone (in the movie I mean, not the writers). Spoiler I mean, just how could Cruise’s boss actually have made the precogs witness a future that he was in effect faking? Surely sticking some guy that the main character has never met and doesn’t even know exists in a room with lots of kiddie pics isn’t enough to lead directly to Anderton confronting and shooting him without knowledge of that future initiating it. In fact, the more I think about it the more I think that what the film shows is in effect a paradox as the effect generates the cause. End spoiler (I couldn’t work out how to make the black box thingy). ---
**Author:** ![buns3000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c89c15/32.png) [@buns3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buns3000)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-complicated-hard-to-follow-plots/386217/44 "2007-01-01T10:59:17Z")
**Spartan** ---
**Author:** ![Campion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@Campion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Campion)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-complicated-hard-to-follow-plots/386217/45 "2007-01-01T18:06:57Z")
[QUOTE=buns3000] **Spartan** [/QUOTE] Yeah, that one was one big “huh.” But loved the dialogue. **Illuminatiprimus** , make a spoiler box with [spoiler] and [/spoiler], removing the spaces. (If you click "reply to this post, you’ll see the coding.) **Phantom Dennis** , it’s been too long since I’ve seen _Brick_, but [spoiler]The Brain gave Emily Brendan’s locker number, so she could put the note in there. That note started things off – it put Brendan on the road at a certain time and place, so he saw the black car and the cigarette with the arrow. The Brain also gave Brendan Emily’s locker number, where Brendan found the picture that was the same as the picture he found in Kara’s stuff, which leads him to Laura’s party, where he sees the black car and Tug, which leads him to the Pin and the brick. At every step, when Brendan seemed to get stumped, he turned to the Brain, who either directed his next step, or misdirected him. Like when Brendan asks about the words Emily used that he didn’t know – brick, Pin, Tug, etc. The Brain tells him what they are, and sets him off again looking for the men who killed Emily. Or when Brendan keeps trying to find the Brain, but the Brain’s phone was taken away right when Brendan needed him. But the point is that the Brain always knows what Brendan’s doing, and always seems able to push him in a direction. Maybe the Brain actually runs the Pin? Or was trying to take over from the Pin? Its’ been suggested that the Brain simply was an explanatory plot device, a way to explain what’s going on. I don’t buy that, though. Most of the time, he wasn’t used for explanation but to drive the plot. But what if he were driving it more than he appeared?[/spoiler]End of hijack. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-complicated-hard-to-follow-plots/386217/46 "2007-01-01T18:37:50Z")
To add to what **Campion** said, **Phantom Dennis** , I’ll direct you to the two threads we’ve had on _Brick_, which lay out my theory about that in great detail. They’re [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=366995) and…dammit! There was another, more recent one. Either the search engine’s not picking it up (in which case I’m really annoyed with the search engine) or it’s been archived or discarded for some reason (in which case I’m really annoyed with certain other people). Can anyone with better search-fu than me find it? ---
**Author:** ![Campion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@Campion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Campion)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-complicated-hard-to-follow-plots/386217/47 "2007-01-01T20:06:42Z")
[QUOTE=Gadarene] Can anyone with better search-fu than me find it? [/QUOTE] [Here you go: “Brick - spoilers in OP. Some may be unboxed”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=385363&highlight=brain). I agree wholeheartedly with your theories, including the theory that the Brain is real, not just Brendan’s "brain."I’ve a friend coming over to hang out today, or I’d go watch it now. I’m going to see if I can talk her into watching this today, even though it’s not her kind of movie. Or else kick her out early so I can watch it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-complicated-hard-to-follow-plots/386217/48 "2007-01-01T21:19:47Z")
I found [The Prestige](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prestige_(film)) really difficult to follow. Fortunately, a thread on this Board explained it to me. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-complicated-hard-to-follow-plots/386217/49 "2007-01-01T21:49:55Z")
[QUOTE=zamboniracer] I found [The Prestige](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prestige_(film)) really difficult to follow. Fortunately, a thread on this Board explained it to me. 😃 [/QUOTE] You did? How?!?! Seemed pretty self explanatory to me. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-complicated-hard-to-follow-plots/386217/50 "2007-01-01T23:03:56Z")
Thanks for finding that, **Campion**! Let me know if you end up convincing your friend to watch the movie. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2007, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-complicated-hard-to-follow-plots/386217/51 "2007-01-02T00:36:07Z")
The original **Apocalypse Now** was nearly incomprehensible after the editing to please the government. It was disjointed gibberish. The redux version with all the original footage restored is very long, but a much better movie, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2007, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-complicated-hard-to-follow-plots/386217/52 "2007-01-02T12:06:11Z")
Is it cheating to nominate a video game? Because the plot of Final Fantasy XII has me absolutely baffled. (And no spoilers! I’m only a level 34.) ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2007, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-complicated-hard-to-follow-plots/386217/53 "2007-01-02T13:24:14Z")
Primer sucked. I suppose the specific details were hard to sort out, but the movie can basically be summed up thusly: Some engineers get together, speak in 9/10ths ridiculous technobabble, build a thingy, and screw things up. The only impressive thing about this movie is that it looked pretty good for being filmed on a $9000 budget. The convoluted plotline doesn’t really go anywhere all that interesting. For a _good_ convoluted movie, I would recommend Ghost In The Shell 2: Innocence. It picks up where the first one leaves off, exploring the nature of reality orders of magnitude more deeply than Neo could ever imagine. There’s a sequence near the end that’s especially mind-twisting. In the end, it does all come together into something really cool. It may not be for everybody though. One reviewer said something like, “you need a PhD in Philosophy to understand this movie.” It’s not as thick as all that, but it’s certainly no lightweight robot anime either. Oh, did I mention it’s anime? ---
**Author:** ![Sonia\_Montdore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Sonia\_Montdore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sonia_Montdore)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2007, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-complicated-hard-to-follow-plots/386217/54 "2007-01-02T14:07:24Z")
Any movie or miniseries based on a novel by John LeCarré is incomprehensible to me. LeCarré has such a brilliant reputation as a master plotter that I’ve tried to watch several productions based on his works but each time about 45 minutes into the action I find I’m hopelessly confused and I give up. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2007, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-complicated-hard-to-follow-plots/386217/55 "2007-01-02T14:59:14Z")
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th] Is it cheating to nominate a video game? Because the plot of Final Fantasy XII has me absolutely baffled. (And no spoilers! I’m only a level 34.) [/QUOTE] If so I’ll add the plot of Planescape Torment - amazing story and game but it took two plays through from start to end to be entirely clear what was happening at each point, and to completely get some of the significant nuances of the story (although that’s probably understandable as the plot of the game is not too disimilar from Memento and deals with a central character suffering from amnesia). ---
**Author:** ![Reloy3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c68b51/32.png) [@Reloy3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reloy3)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2007, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-complicated-hard-to-follow-plots/386217/56 "2007-01-02T18:40:26Z")
**The Spanish Prisoner** - Good flick, though, if you can get past the stilted, clipped dialogue style. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2007, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-complicated-hard-to-follow-plots/386217/57 "2007-01-02T20:28:27Z")
[QUOTE=Struan] I must admit it’s the only film I’ve ever came out of and bought a ticket for the next showing. However, I don’t rate it as highly now, and in fact the last time I watched it I fast forwarded big chunks. Jackie Brown is Tarantinos best film in my opinion, and by quite some distance. [/QUOTE] The only complicated thing about _Pulp Fiction_ was its nonlinear construction, which is borrowed from _The Killing_. It’s a vastly overrated movie in my opinion. I think that _Reservoir Dogs_ is Tarantino’s best film, or at least most memorable (in a good way) but _Jackie Brown_ is a more mature, better developed story with some great performances by Greer and the sadly-underappreciated Robert Forester. I’m in total agreement with those who thought _Kill Bill_ was gold-plated shiite. Aside from the scenes with David Carridine and Micheal Masden, the thing was a throwaway, and Uma Thurman worship totally befuddles me; could we find a less appealing woman to headline a movie than her? [QUOTE=buns3000] **Spartan** [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Reloy3] **The Spanish Prisoner** - Good flick, though, if you can get past the stilted, clipped dialogue style. [/QUOTE] Both _Spartan_ and _The Spanish Prisoner_ take multiple viewings to catch everything that is going on. You certainly have to like Mamet’s way of creating a venacular or the dialogue is just going to annoy you; one of the reason he’s never made it as a screenwriter/director of big blustery Hollywood movies; he writes for people who like to play games and figure things out. (He’s made good coin as an oft-uncredited screenplay doctor, and you can see his touch–see _Ronin_.) _The Spanish Prisoner_ is, in some aspects, a retooling of Kafka’s _The Trial_, with Campbell Scott playing the Josef K role. (Note how the McGuffin is called “The Process”. Not a coincidence.) _Spartan_ is a political screed (against the way government alternately relies upon and betrays the common mudfoot) in the guise of an action thriller. I think if you don’t catch the allusions it’s probably not a very interesting film. With it, there is layer upon layer of deception, deceit, cynicism, and the lies we tell ourselves in the guise of patriotism and duty. And it has some utterly brilliant dialogue that totally makes up for the improbable, _deus ex machina_ ending. The final lines (Stranger: “Time to go home.” Robert Scott: “Lucky man.”) are heartbreaking when you consider it in the context of how soldiers are treated when they return from an unpopular war or covert action. On the topic of _Brick_, like **Campion** I found the stylized dialogue intriging but hard to follow (plus I was really tired when I watched it) and need to watch it again. I’m not totally sold on the notion that Brain was behind the whole thing, but it’s certainly possible. A lot of the films mentioned don’t seem to me to have particularly complicated plots; the director’s cut/Eurpean cinematic version of _Brazil_, for instance, is fairly straightforward (once you realize that there aren’t really any terrorists, it’s just the badly made and maintained infrastructure keeps blowing up all on its own), and even the American cinematic cut was pretty clear. (The “Love Conquers All” Shienberg cut, on the other hand, makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, but that’s due to incompetence in editing and construction by a studio hack with no vision or comprehension of the underlying themes.) _Chinatown_ seems pretty clear to me, too–Jake exposiates the conspiracy in the end–although there are nuances that you don’t pick without additional viewings. _Memento_ would be my choice; although it has a clear solution, it requires careful attention and repeat viewings to catch and piece together all of the elements to see what’s going on (and once you do, there’s a powerful message; the reverse-chronological construction is not just a gimmick as it is in some other films). And it’s no fair watching it in reverse chronological order. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2007, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-complicated-hard-to-follow-plots/386217/58 "2007-01-02T20:34:26Z")
[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train] _Memento_ would be my choice… And it’s no fair watching it in reverse chronological order. [/QUOTE] Anyone who does that couldn’t appreciate what the movie does, and wouldn’t enjoy it (nor would they deserve to). Maybe I need to watch it again as I’m not entirely clear I got the powerful meaning you describe, although the end sequence was very through provoking. i.e. human’s need purpose so much that Leonard tricked himself into hunting for someone who was already dead, just to make life worth living ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2007, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-complicated-hard-to-follow-plots/386217/59 "2007-01-02T21:45:21Z")
[QUOTE=Illuminatiprimus] Anyone who does that couldn’t appreciate what the movie does, and wouldn’t enjoy it (nor would they deserve to). Maybe I need to watch it again as I’m not entirely clear I got the powerful meaning you describe, although the end sequence was very through provoking. i.e. human’s need purpose so much that Leonard tricked himself into hunting for someone who was already dead, just to make life worth living [/QUOTE] You’ve pretty much got it there, methinks, along with People will cast their memories in a way that is most favorable to how they want or need to see the world. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2007, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-complicated-hard-to-follow-plots/386217/60 "2007-01-02T21:49:49Z")
Yep, got that too. I hope it’s true as well, that way maybe my memories of the faeces throwing free for all I’m currently involved in in a thread in the Pit might become more pleasant over time… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-complicated-hard-to-follow-plots/386217.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-with-complicated-hard-to-follow-plots/386217.md?page=4)