# Movies without moral redemption: Any? Possible? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 18, 2006, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-moral-redemption-any-possible/384660 "2006-12-18T17:59:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-moral-redemption-any-possible/384660/81 "2006-12-19T02:16:56Z")
[QUOTE=RikWriter] You’re conflating what the OP asked and what YOU asked. YOU asked if a non-happy ending were possible in Hollywood and cynically concluded “no.” [/QUOTE] Yes, it’s getting confusing. Still, in the implied context of the OP, I can’t think of a non-“redemptive” movie that has ever qualified as a blockbuster. And again, outside of that context, the OP doesn’t make much sense. To me at least; there are thousands and thousands of non-redemptive movies out there, as evidenced by A) your own list, and B) Sundance. Further clarification, re: “happy ending” and “redemptive.” In the context of this thread, I’m intentionally conflating the two. I don’t mean “happy ending” in the traditional sense–happy for all the characters involved–but a happy ending in that it satisfies the audience’s expectations; chiefly, its expectation of a redemptive story. \*Texas Chainsaw Massacre \*ends with the blond chick being rescued and the monster fading into the distance. Of course in the extended context–there were sequels, after all–the monster “got away with it.” But in the context of that moment when the credits roll, the movie had a “happy ending.” The convention is pretty universal, even in horror movies. A favorite exception is _The Haunting_, when Nell is basically absorbed by the house. (Or am I misremembering it? Maybe I’m mixing it up with the book.) _Rosemary’s Baby_’s ending is brilliantly subversive, although again: dark comedy. Definitely not a “happy ending,” but it’s played like one. Huh. Larious. Ditto _The Stepford Wives_; another brilliant anti-Disney ending; framed ironically here because the Diz character, nicknamed for his past work with Disney, triumphs. Evilly. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-moral-redemption-any-possible/384660/82 "2006-12-19T02:17:59Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Easy Rider and Electra glide in Blue. They are definately not the ending expected. [/QUOTE] Definitely. \*EGiB \*has one of my favorite endings of all time. ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-moral-redemption-any-possible/384660/83 "2006-12-19T02:26:44Z")
[QUOTE=VunderBob] _Payback_ [/QUOTE] With the best closing dialog ever written 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-moral-redemption-any-possible/384660/84 "2006-12-19T02:31:55Z")
The real question is, is there any possibility of redemption for what started out as an interesting thread? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-moral-redemption-any-possible/384660/85 "2006-12-19T02:34:02Z")
[QUOTE=featherlou] The real question is, is there any possibility of redemption for what started out as an interesting thread? [/QUOTE] Yes, if we can stay on topic. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-moral-redemption-any-possible/384660/86 "2006-12-19T02:50:14Z")
I don’t know if it qualifies, but “The Proposition” comes to mind. When I was watching it, I couldn’t help thinking that the movie had no good guys in it at all. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-moral-redemption-any-possible/384660/87 "2006-12-19T03:21:00Z")
**The Reflecting Skin** made me despair for the whole cosmos. ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-moral-redemption-any-possible/384660/88 "2006-12-19T04:33:42Z")
I wonder what Apocalypse Now would be considered as. The protagonist fulfills his goal (unless I’m remembering wrong), but the journey and the way it happens are certainly much darker than is expected. Maybe it hinges on whether the main character is better off at the end of the movie than at the beginning, and I don’t remember if he is. ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-moral-redemption-any-possible/384660/89 "2006-12-19T04:40:14Z")
I read the OP as asking more about if a light comedy could end that way… of course there are dozens of dark comedies (Trainspotting) and tragedies (Macbeth, to grab one at random) that don’t have a redemptive ending, but could Prada end that way? Could any light comedy? Of course if the hero isn’t likeable, or if the movie is curiously amoral, it wouldn’t be called a “light comedy.” Genre is all about fulfilling expectations. I think I’ve seen a few movies where the hero’s ruthlessness is shown to fit into the grand scheme of things, though. I can’t think of any examples offhand. ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-moral-redemption-any-possible/384660/90 "2006-12-19T04:42:33Z")
Incidentally, I found the ending of Prada to be pretty ironic, given that the way the story “really” ends is, the lovely heroine backstabs her boss with a _roman a clefe_ that makes her a million bucks. That ending might work as a light comedy, too, because although she proved ruthless and ambitious, we think the bitch had it comin’. Unfortunately, Meryl Streep made that boss sympathetic, even if she was mean and conniving, so maybe that ending would not have fit in the spirit of a light comedy. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-moral-redemption-any-possible/384660/91 "2006-12-19T05:37:55Z")
[QUOTE=Ethilrist] _The Unforgiven_. [/QUOTE] Do you mean Clint Eastwood’s Oscar winner from the early 90s? Because, if so, I’d say it doesn’t quite qualify. Yes, Eastwood’s character reverts to his gunslinger ways, but I don’t think we’re meant to see it as a victory; we’re meant to see it as a defeat. ---
**Author:** ![MrJackboots](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MrJackboots](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrJackboots)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-moral-redemption-any-possible/384660/92 "2006-12-19T06:01:00Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] Se7en – dark, but comeuppance happens. [/QUOTE] Could you explain this one to me? Doe _wins_. His carefully-constructed bit of art-killing is complete, exactly the way he wanted it. Where’s the comeuppance? ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-moral-redemption-any-possible/384660/93 "2006-12-19T06:11:50Z")
Funny Games[.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=116204) ---
**Author:** ![Junior\_Spaceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Junior\_Spaceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Junior_Spaceman)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-moral-redemption-any-possible/384660/94 "2006-12-19T07:01:48Z")
The seventies Australian movie **Stone** comes to mind - you think it’s going to meander along and be a typical blokey movie about men coming of age, etc etc, and the ending is just … unexpected (I don’t want to spoil it for anyone, but it shocked me in a way I dont think I’ve ever been shocked by a movie before). ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-moral-redemption-any-possible/384660/95 "2006-12-19T07:14:17Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] Se7en – dark, but comeuppance happens. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=MrJackboots] Could you explain this one to me? Doe _wins_. His carefully-constructed bit of art-killing is complete, exactly the way he wanted it. Where’s the comeuppance? [/QUOTE] The comeuppance was received by the people “John Doe” murdered. In his view, each of his victims represented one of the seven deadly sins and thus deserved to die. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-moral-redemption-any-possible/384660/96 "2006-12-19T07:24:22Z")
The Boondock Saints: The Brothers McManus go from being hardworking, honest men to violent vigilantes who go so far as to shoot a mob boss dead in the middle of a courtroom, on the way even dragging down an FBI agent and several NYPD detectives with them. The movie leaves it open to interpretation whether they were acting under a mission from God or if they were just collectively insane. The Doom Generation: By the end of the movie, an impressive number of people have been killed in an improbable series of events, the girlfriend raped, the boyfriend castrated and murdered, and the killers/rapists stabbed to death. The movie ends with the girlfriend, and the guy who caused all of their problems, driving off into the distance, eating a bag of doritos. And of course, as was mentioned before, dark comedies usually apply. We all know how Dr. Strangelove ended. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-moral-redemption-any-possible/384660/97 "2006-12-19T07:55:39Z")
Hasn’t anyone seen _Swimming With Sharks_? It’s basically _The Devil Wears Prada_ (based on what I’ve seen of the previews for DWP) ten years earlier in the film industry with male leads (Kevin Spacey and Frank Whaley). Producer Spacey dumps on his assistant Whaley the entire movie, until finally Whaley decides to get even. No moral redemption at all. He takes Spacey hostage and proceeds to torture him all night. At midnight, Whaley’s producer girlfriend walks in (to Spacey’s apartment). When Whaley realizes the one person he trusted has been fucking him over like everybody else, he shoots her, then coerces a deal with Spacey to pin everything on her and make him his partner. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-moral-redemption-any-possible/384660/98 "2006-12-19T07:57:27Z")
Money Train Aloha Bobby and Rose Easy Rider Crimes and Misdemeanors Carnal Knowledge ---
**Author:** ![Einmon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Einmon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Einmon)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-moral-redemption-any-possible/384660/99 "2006-12-19T10:15:19Z")
What about _Thank you for smoking_? While there was some element of moral redemption it was mainly a nod to recognizing the dangers of smoking, not necessily an improvement of any of the characters. Then again, the movie was satire and hence into the realm of dark comedy. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-moral-redemption-any-possible/384660/100 "2006-12-19T13:40:07Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] So . . . the OP asks (all due respect, rather naively) if a movie without a morally redemptive ending is, quote, “possible,” and your response is . . . what? Nothing else is artistically valid? Only Disney-style happy endings should ever be made? Because anything short of that is extorted brutalization? Help me out here. [/QUOTE] Dude. Movies are entertainment. It’s real life that sucks. If I thought making movies that sucked as much as real life would somehow make real life suck less, I’d be with you all the way. Von Trier would be a moviemaking god. But the guy clearly hates his characters and puts them through hell for the fun of it, and then expects us to join him on his little sadism rides. Saying we somehow have a responsibility to like the trash von Trier churns out is like saying we have a responsibility to like cotton candy. We don’t, dude. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-moral-redemption-any-possible/384660.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-moral-redemption-any-possible/384660.md?page=6)