# Movies without the plot armor **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 10, 2017, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-the-plot-armor/795978 "2017-09-10T01:13:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-the-plot-armor/795978/21 "2017-09-10T21:10:20Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > [tangent]The word ‘gunsel’ has an interesting etymology that I only learned last year.[/tangent] > > [gunsel - Wiktionary, the free dictionary](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gunsel) Oh yes, I used the word intentionally. Apparently Hammett sneaked it into the original novel where the unlettered censors missed its original meaning, thinking that it had something to do with guns. For the same reason, Huston was able to keep it in the screenplay. When Gutman tells Wilmer “I couldn’t be fonder of you if you were my own son. But, well, if you lose a son, it’s possible to get another. There’s only one Maltese Falcon,” I think the (creepy) relationship is pretty clear. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-the-plot-armor/795978/22 "2017-09-10T21:23:53Z")
Unfortunately Frodo’s wound from the Morgul-knife at Weathertop proves fatal. Although Aragorn manages to get him and the Ring to Rivendell, Elrond’s ministrations are not enough to heal him and he succumbs. At the Council of Elrond, Gandalf suddenly has the brilliant idea to ask the Eagles to fly the Ring to Mt. Doom and dispose of it. They do so successfully, and the Trilogy becomes two books shorter. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-the-plot-armor/795978/23 "2017-09-10T22:19:21Z")
Walter Parks Thatcher dies of sled poisoning. The young Charles Kane spends time in a comfortable reformatory, insulated from actual repercussions by his mother’s newfound wealth. ---
**Author:** ![Dioptre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/278dde/32.png) [@Dioptre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dioptre)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-the-plot-armor/795978/24 "2017-09-10T23:35:44Z")
**Die Hard** During a fight with Heinrich and Marco, John Mclane suffers a disabling leg wound. When Sgt Al Powell is sent to investigate reports of gunfire, Argyle the limo driver creates a distraction for him to slip into the building. Powell unlocks the elevator for Argyle to leave the garage, and the unlikely partners proceed to take on the bad guys. When the hostages are finally leaving the building, Mclane is wheeled out, apparently unconscious from loss of blood. A last remaining terrorist, Karl, suddenly emerges and tries to gun down the heroes Al and Argyle. Mclane sits up in the stretcher and shoots him. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-the-plot-armor/795978/25 "2017-09-10T23:48:27Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > _Alien_ also strips the plot armor: Sigourney Weaver wasn’t billed as the lead, and was basically a complete unknown at the time. All the other characters get killed in the order of their billing, so the audience would keep on going “Wait, so I guess this guy is the real main character”. \*\* SPOILER ALERT\*\*: Actually, I remember seeing that in the theater. Everyone in the audience totally expected Sigourney Weaver to die. It was a shock (and brilliant) when the one unknown in an all-star cast is the only one to survive. Because she was alive, no one really believed the movie was over and the alien wasn’t going to jump out once more until the credits rolled. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-the-plot-armor/795978/26 "2017-09-11T01:23:36Z")
Another form of plot armor comes from the use of flashback. Suppose a character, during the main narrative thread of a movie or novel, is killed. At some later point in the book/movie, a flashback occurs, relating an earlier time in the career of the unfortunate decedent. You just \*know \*that the character cannot die in this flashback, because you have already seen him die in the later episode. I recall Jack Vance subverting this concept in his Dying Earth series by setting one story earlier than a previous story, in which the main character had already died. So we think the character is safe in this “flashback” story. However, Vance being Vance, the character dies anyway! I’m know sure, but I think the character was Liane the Wayfarer. Perhaps someone with more surviving brain cells can back me up? ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-the-plot-armor/795978/27 "2017-09-11T02:31:14Z")
> [@furryman](#): > > I sometimes think that by the last episode of Game of Thrones Tyrion will be the only person left alive. I still haven’t figured out why Tyrion is still alive. Everyone else that people like gets made dead. GOT: After Khal Drogo dies, Danaerys is taken as a slave by one of his bloodriders, the dragon eggs are sold off instead of put into a funeral pyre, and eventually work their way to King’s Landing and Joffrey. When the Night’s Watch asks Joffrey for recruits and aid, he sends the eggs instead, claiming they’re “incredibly valuable, or so I’ve been told”. With the help of Maester Aemon (Targaryen), they hatch the dragons, fight off the Wildlings long before they reach the wall, and end the Whitewalker threat before the snow starts to fall. ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-the-plot-armor/795978/28 "2017-09-11T06:37:42Z")
> [@Shoeless](#): > > There was an episode of “Big Bang Theory” where, after watching Raiders with Sheldon, Amy wonders why Indy is in the movie at all, since it would have ended the same way without him. > [@](#): > > Indiana Jones plays no role in the outcome of the story. If he weren’t in the film, it would turn out exactly the same… If he weren’t in the movie, the Nazis would still have found the Ark, taken it to the island, opened it up, and all died, just like they did.” I think that’s typical of The Big Bang Theory to mess up their own joke premise, the idea was to find a major story problem in Raiders of the Lost Ark and they didn’t go with the glaringly obvious “Why is there an armed German Army in Egypt in 1936? Egypt was occupied by the British and obviously would have not tolerated the Germans there at all, especially since this was when Germany was still pretending they didn’t have a rearmed military running around”. There’s also the fact it wouldn’t have ended the same way, Indy blows up the flying wing which would have taken it to Berlin necessitating them to take it to the island instead. What instead probably would have happened was they’d take it to Berlin, do a test run and end with the same scene we got with the movie. However the fact it’s under direct German control means the people in charge are going to find a bunch of dead bodies next to a sealed Ark and immediately put two and two together. After extensive testing with concentration camp inmates, they’d realize they now have a spiffy new wunderweapon to unleash. My best guess to how they would utilize it is they’d happily “donate” the ark to another country and host a giant gala for it to attract high level politicians and military brass to see the new unveiling. On June 21st 1941 the entire Soviet high command including Stalin are given a peace offering by Nazi Germany to show their commitment to continued good relations and it is to be shown off at a military parade shown off that very day. As a truck carrying the Ark passes by Stalin’s review stand the lid is “accidentally” kicked off by a sacrificial attendant. With Stalin and most of the Soviet command and control now gone, the Germans unleash their blitzkrieg the very next day… ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-the-plot-armor/795978/29 "2017-09-11T11:45:30Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > “Do you expect me to talk?” > “No, Mister Bond, I expect you to die!” > “If I fail to report, 008 replaces me.” > “I trust he will be more successful!” > > He is. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-the-plot-armor/795978/30 "2017-09-11T12:01:23Z")
This one’s bothered me ever since I was a kid. In **The Seventh Voyage of Sinbad** , ray Harryhausen’s fantasy film from 1958 with outstandsing special effects, Princes Parisa is shrunk by the evil magician Sokurah. Sinbad sails to the island of Colossa to obtain the ingredients needed to restore her to her original height. In the process, they are captured by a giant Cyclops and put in a cage. Sinbad carries the princess with them in a convenient storage pack so that they can restore her without delay. Since they can’t reach the release latch, he takes her out and puts her atop the cage to undo the latch. She succeeds, and Sinbad immediately throws open the roof of the cage… …thereby throwing the Princess across the path to her doom. At least that’s how it always plays in my mind. A decent suitor would first make sure his sweetheart wasn’t standing on top of the trap door he’s about to violently throw open. So, since the Princess is dead, and they’ll all be executed as soon as they return to Baghdad\*, Sinbad and his men kill Sokurah (who they have no further use for) as well as the Cyclops, take all the treasure from Cyclops’ storehouse, and go off pirating in the Arabian seas. Heck, most of Sinbad’s men on this trip were criminals and pirates, anyway. \*Baghdad is way the hell up the Tigris from the Persian (Arabian) Gulf. It’s pretty unlikely that Sinbad would’ve sailed his ship up there. Maybe Sinbad and his crew would’ve been clever (and unethical) and tried to torture the formula for the lamp out of Sokurah before they offed him. But then, maybe the Genie in this reality would’ve had the same reservations about restoring the dead that Robin Williams’ did. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-the-plot-armor/795978/31 "2017-09-11T13:37:29Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > I think that’s typical of The Big Bang Theory to mess up their own joke premise, the idea was to find a major story problem in Raiders of the Lost Ark and they didn’t go with the glaringly obvious “Why is there an armed German Army in Egypt in 1936? Egypt was occupied by the British and obviously would have not tolerated the Germans there at all, especially since this was when Germany was still pretending they didn’t have a rearmed military running around”. To me the bigger problem, from a _Big Bang Theory_ characterization perspective, was that Amy pointing this out was terribly upsetting to Sheldon, and to the rest of the guys when Sheldon told them. But Indy’s relative unimportance to the story had been discussed in geek circles for _years_ before that episode. It’s almost unbelievable that Amy was saying anything they hadn’t already heard before. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-the-plot-armor/795978/32 "2017-09-11T15:16:01Z")
_Fight Club_. Without plot armor one of Norton or Pitt or both would have been seriously maimed beyond the ability to fight again if not killed outright. What? What??? ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-the-plot-armor/795978/33 "2017-09-11T15:18:03Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Raiders of the Lost Ark - Indiana Jones tries to hang on to the periscope of a U-Boat as it cruises across the Mediterranean. Within 30 minutes, he loses his grip and is stranded in the middle of the sea, drowning a couple of hours later. Or it does the unthinkable, and submerges. Why would he assume a U-Boat was going to stay on top? And he had no idea where it was going- he had no food or water. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-the-plot-armor/795978/34 "2017-09-11T15:22:25Z")
> [@MrAtoz](#): > > To me the bigger problem, from a _Big Bang Theory_ characterization perspective, was that Amy pointing this out was terribly upsetting to Sheldon, and to the rest of the guys when Sheldon told them. But Indy’s relative unimportance to the story had been discussed in geek circles for _years_ before that episode. It’s almost unbelievable that Amy was saying anything they hadn’t already heard before. Isn’t that pretty common in adventure stories? I’m drawing a blank on other examples, but I feel like stories where a hero has a really exciting time alongside major events that would unfold the same whether he won his own adventure or not are pretty common. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-the-plot-armor/795978/35 "2017-09-11T15:30:49Z")
> [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](#): > > Or it does the unthinkable, and submerges. Why would he assume a U-Boat was going to stay on top? And he had no idea where it was going- he had no food or water. Until the development of the type XXI U-boat in 1943, submarines were basically surface ships that could dive occasionally. They operated on the surface except when they were hiding, couldn’t operate submerged for long, and couldn’t move as fast while submerged as they could on the surface. It’s actually not unreasonable to expect a 1936 submarine to stay on the surface for the entire trip, since they wouldn’t have any reason to submerge unless they were trying to escape observation by a plane or other ship. OTOH, Germany didn’t actually have any military presence in Egypt at dig sites (it was occupied by Britain) or bases in Greece for the submarine to go to (they didn’t occupy Greece until 1941), so there’s plenty to poke holes in with Nazis and their submarine. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-the-plot-armor/795978/36 "2017-09-11T16:45:18Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > [tangent]The word ‘gunsel’ has an interesting etymology that I only learned last year.[/tangent] > > [gunsel - Wiktionary, the free dictionary](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gunsel) Similar to the original meaning of “punk”. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-the-plot-armor/795978/37 "2017-09-11T16:59:13Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Unfortunately Frodo’s wound from the Morgul-knife at Weathertop proves fatal. Although Aragorn manages to get him and the Ring to Rivendell, Elrond’s ministrations are not enough to heal him and he succumbs. > > At the Council of Elrond, Gandalf suddenly has the brilliant idea to ask the Eagles to fly the Ring to Mt. Doom and dispose of it. They do so successfully, and the Trilogy becomes two books shorter. 🙂 No, the Eagles can’t fly the ring (or the Ringbearer) to Mount Doom- that’s been debunked a zillion times on this board alone. The problem with Lord of the Rings is that it is such an ensemble cast of characters that Frodo’s death anywhere doesn’t seriously derail the story; Samwise could have been the replacement Ring Bearer at almost any point. ---
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-the-plot-armor/795978/38 "2017-09-11T19:40:07Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > How about comic books with no plot armor? When a character dies, they stay dead. > > By 2017, the Justice League consists of Black Canary, Cyborg, John Stewart, and Zatanna. Apparently in the Legends of Tomorrow universe the golden age Green Lantern never existed. In at least one series detailing the history of the DC universe he’s credited with inspiring the other golden age characters to become heroes. So without Green Lantern who inspired them? The Crimson Avenger? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-the-plot-armor/795978/39 "2017-09-11T19:55:00Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > No, the Eagles can’t fly the ring (or the Ringbearer) to Mount Doom- that’s been debunked a zillion times on this board alone. I was joking. (You seem to have overlooked the smiley ;)). But the reason that the Eagles can’t fly it to Mount Doom is pretty much the same as plot armor. It’s an arbitrary condition set up by the author so the plot plays out the way he wants it to. If you can posit that hobbits are particularly resistant to the Ring, you could just as well set it up so that Eagles were too. The reason the Eagles can’t fly it to Mt. Doom is fundamentally because it would make the story too short. > [@](#): > > The problem with Lord of the Rings is that it is such an ensemble cast of characters that Frodo’s death anywhere doesn’t seriously derail the story; Samwise could have been the replacement Ring Bearer at almost any point. Agreed. Frodo could have actually been killed by Shelob and Sam could have made it to Mt. Doom anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-the-plot-armor/795978/40 "2017-09-11T20:20:06Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > But the reason that the Eagles can’t fly it to Mount Doom is pretty much the same as plot armor. It’s an arbitrary condition set up by the author so the plot plays out the way he wants it to. If you can posit that hobbits are particularly resistant to the Ring, you could just as well set it up so that Eagles were too. The reason the Eagles can’t fly it to Mt. Doom is fundamentally because it would make the story too short. Exactly. It’s amazing how many readers seem to believe that an author is just reporting the events of the story. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-the-plot-armor/795978.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-without-the-plot-armor/795978.md?page=3)