# Moving Isreal **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607 "2010-01-12T02:43:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Odaran09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Odaran09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odaran09)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/1 "2010-01-12T02:43:56Z")
Why can’t we relocate Isreal to a more European location. I mean give them a safe corridor to travel through. They can even transport the buildings/land underneath that they hold sacred. I have seen houses moved and I would think that the oil rich nations with a large muslim population like to see them leave that area. 1. Given, let’s say, 10 years, do you think they could do it? 2. Do you think that the arab nations would still want Isreal abolished if it was not where it currently was? 3. What reasons would the Isreal population have not to move if guaranteed safety while moving? Extra credit: If I invented a time machine and was able to go back to before the choose the location for Isreal, and assuming that I can convince them to pick somewhere else, how different would the world be? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/2 "2010-01-12T02:53:34Z")
Never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever going to happen. Nor should it. > [@Odaran09](#): > > Why can’t we relocate Isreal to a more European location. Because the people who live there would not want to leave. Despite the many difficulties posed by the existence of Israel, its people shouldn’t be asked to move out. > [@](#): > > They can even transport the buildings/land underneath that they hold sacred. The _location_ is sacred to them. They believe the land (not the _dirt_) was promised to them by their god. So there’s that. > [@](#): > > I would think that the oil rich nations with a large muslim population like to see them leave that area. They surely would, but then again, some of them would go further. Is there any reason this should be done? > [@](#): > > 1. Given, let’s say, 10 years, do you think they could do it? Doubtful. > [@](#): > > 1. Do you think that the arab nations would still want Isreal abolished if it was not where it currently was? Probably, but it would be a much lower priority issue. Many of them would continue to blame Israel for many of their problems and they would probably keep trying to use the plight of the Palestinians as an inflammatory issue while doing little to help the actual people. > [@](#): > > 1. What reasons would the Isreal population have not to move if guaranteed safety while moving? Are you serious? They wouldn’t want to move because they already live there, and because the land is important to them. Why would they want to move? Because some people they don’t like don’t like them back? (I’m speaking from their perspective here.) > [@](#): > > Extra credit: > If I invented a time machine and was able to go back to before the choose the location for Isreal, and assuming that I can convince them to pick somewhere else, how different would the world be? Way back when, some of the early Zionists didn’t think Israel should be where it currently is, and others didn’t expect they would really be able to get the location. I think some of them pushed for a location in South America. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/3 "2010-01-12T03:03:03Z")
Israel. **ISRAEL.** ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/4 "2010-01-12T03:12:30Z")
> [@Odaran09](#): > > Why can’t we relocate Isreal to a more European location. Have you ever had a falafel in Amsterdam or Dresden? The Jewish people have suffered enough, and shouldn’t be forced to endure any more (be it culinary or otherwise) atrocities!!! ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/5 "2010-01-12T03:19:10Z")
I’ve actually heard the OP’s suggestion many times. Always about Israel. Never about anywhere else. You know, Iran and Iraq never really got along - why don’t “we” move one of them? Russia doesn’t seem to get along with Chechnya - why don’t “we” just move Chechnya to…I don’t know, somewhere in France. Hell, Spain and the Basque country never got along well - let’s move the Basques to Northern Ireland! And the Irish just can’t seem to get along with the goddamn British…let’s move the Irish to Germany. Or move the English to Italy. And, you know, there always seems to be trouble in the Sudan…why don’t we move the people in Darfur to Sweden? But I never hear anyone suggest that. I DO, however, often hear people suggest that Israel be uprooted and moved to somewhere else in the world. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/6 "2010-01-12T03:22:32Z")
Another suggestion by some early Zionists was Uganda. Personally, I like some location in the southwestern USA- it’ll be the Re-unification of the Tribes. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/7 "2010-01-12T03:25:21Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > But I never hear anyone suggest that. I DO, however, often hear people suggest that Israel be uprooted and moved to somewhere else in the world. There are two reasons, I think. One’s historical: Israel was created as a Jewish homeland and many people who live there are recent immigrants or descended from them. And the other reason is that there’s a belief the Jews can be reasoned with and the Arabs can’t, so the Jews have to accommodate them. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/8 "2010-01-12T04:12:48Z")
> [@Odaran09](#): > > Why can’t we relocate Isreal to a more European location. I mean give them a safe corridor to travel through. They can even transport the buildings/land underneath that they hold sacred. > > I have seen houses moved and I would think that the oil rich nations with a large muslim population like to see them leave that area. > > 1. Given, let’s say, 10 years, do you think they could do it? > 2. Do you think that the arab nations would still want Isreal abolished if it was not where it currently was? > 3. What reasons would the Isreal population have not to move if guaranteed safety while moving? > > Extra credit: > If I invented a time machine and was able to go back to before the choose the location for Isreal, and assuming that I can convince them to pick somewhere else, how different would the world be? Well, assuming the world got together and asked, and Israel said “sure, we’re game!” then yes, it could be done. The world’s airlines fly about 1 billion passengers/year, so flying 5 1/2 million Israelis someplace would be child’s play. Also, I’m sure moving companies move at least five million households/year, although I’m just guessing that. Let’s give them Montana. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/9 "2010-01-12T04:19:51Z")
I think it’s a great idea. You move all the buildings, land, everything and you put it somewhere in Europe! Maybe you annex some land in Russia…they have lots of land and I’m sure they’d be willing to give it up. Or, here’s a thought, you could put it in Germany! That would work equally well, to be sure! > [@](#): > > 1. Given, let’s say, 10 years, do you think they could do it? Certainly. As you say, if you can move a house you can move a whole country with all the people and stuff too. > [@](#): > > 1. Do you think that the arab nations would still want Isreal abolished if it was not where it currently was? If you abolished Israel I’m fairly sure they would no longer want it abolished, so it’s a win/win. I’m sure, if given this great opportunity, the Palestinian’s would make the most of it and turn the region into a paradise on earth, instead of the barren and smoking crater it is today. They just need a chance. It’s like in that book (I don’t recall the name) where the guy says (to paraphrase) ‘I’d do great if only someone would give me a company’. Same concept, but on a bigger scale. > [@](#): > > 1. What reasons would the Isreal population have not to move if guaranteed safety while moving? I can’t think of any reason they wouldn’t move if only they were promised safety. I mean, if I threatened you with a gun and told you that you had to move, but that I wouldn’t shoot you while you moved (and I crossed my heart), then you wouldn’t have any problem moving, right? In fact, where do you live? We could try this out in the real world and see how it plays out… > [@](#): > > If I invented a time machine and was able to go back to before the choose the location for Isreal, and assuming that I can convince them to pick somewhere else, how different would the world be? You could tell them that it would be in their best interest to just stay right where they were and live there. There was no good reason for them to have moved to Palestine when they had perfectly good homes where they were. After all, they were living happy and productive lives in Europe, well loved and respected by their neighbors, with white picket fences and everything. And instead of just being happy they had to go over and steal the land from the poor Palestinian’s who never did nuffin to nobody, and who just wanted to live and let live. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/10 "2010-01-12T05:07:52Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Another suggestion by some early Zionists was Uganda. Why? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/11 "2010-01-12T05:10:37Z")
> [@Odaran09](#): > > 1. What reasons would the Isreal population have not to move if guaranteed safety while moving? I think their main objection would be that they’ve already had to relocate countless times throughout history, before finally having a home of their own. Perhaps it’s time for the Arabs to move. I hear there’s water on the moon. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/12 "2010-01-12T05:21:21Z")
Wherever you moved Israel to, the people who already live there would become the new Palestinians, fighting tooth and nail to get their homeland back. Don’t you have any clue how this problem started in the first place? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/13 "2010-01-12T05:24:09Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Perhaps it’s time for the Arabs to move. I hear there’s water on the moon. Yeah lets do that. Arabs aren’t human beings after all. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/14 "2010-01-12T05:27:53Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Wherever you moved Israel to, the people who already live there would become the new Palestinians, fighting tooth and nail to get their homeland back. Don’t you have any clue how this problem started in the first place? :rolleyes: Well, not necessarily. It’d be a lot harder to fight a guerilla war against an opponent thousands of miles away. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/15 "2010-01-12T05:45:36Z")
> [@ArgentTowers](#): > > I’ve actually heard the OP’s suggestion many times. Always about Israel. Never about anywhere else. Really? I’ve heard it more than once about Palestine. There seem to be quite a few people who feel that a Palestinian homeland should just be carved out of some other Arab state somewhere, leaving the so-called “Greater Israel” to become part of Israel proper. > [@Marley23](#): > > One’s historical: Israel was created as a Jewish homeland and many people who live there are recent immigrants or descended from them. Right, and as other posters have noted, there actually was serious debate for quite a while about what the geographical location of the Jewish homeland should be. So it makes sense that Israel might seem more potentially “relocatable” in terms of geography than other countries. But that doesn’t mean that it would be a good idea or a practicable idea for Israel, now that it’s formally established in its current location, simply to pull up stakes and move somewhere else. Personally, as an atheist whose own Jewish heritage has roots in Hasidic anti-Zionism (that is, Jewish sects who opposed the return of Jews to biblical Israel on doctrinal grounds), I’m mostly indifferent to arguments about modern Jews having any divinely ordained or historically privileged claim to any particular piece of biblical real estate. However, as a pro-human-rights pragmatist, I think that established and recognized countries in general should be accepted where they are, and their populations should not be ethnically cleansed just because other people might prefer their room to their company. (In fact, that latter principle applies to populations in general, irrespective of whether they constitute an established and recognized country.) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/16 "2010-01-12T05:50:20Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] Really? I’ve heard it more than once about Palestine. There seem to be quite a few people who feel that a Palestinian homeland should just be carved out of some other Arab state somewhere, leaving the so-called “Greater Israel” to become part of Israel proper. [/QUOTE] Like, oh, I don’t know…Jordan maybe? > [@](#): > > Right, and as other posters have noted, there actually was serious debate for quite a while about what the geographical location of the Jewish homeland should be. So it makes sense that Israel might seem more potentially “relocatable” in terms of geography than other countries. What debate are you referring too? Who was having this debate? -XT ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/17 "2010-01-12T05:50:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, not necessarily. It’d be a lot harder to fight a guerilla war against an opponent thousands of miles away. I am not sure what you mean. They would not be fighting actual Palestinians any more. The actual Palestinians would be quite content. They would have got their homeland back. But if you moved Israel to Bulgaria, say, the Bulgarians that you kicked out of their homes to make way for them would be fighting to get their homeland back. You are aware, are you, that the reason Palestinians hate Israel is that they used to live there, and were kicked out of their homeland in 1948 to make way for this new country? There was no particular bad blood between Arabs and Jews before that. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/18 "2010-01-12T05:50:56Z")
> [@RNATB](#): > > > [@FriarTed](#): > > > > Another suggestion by some early Zionists was Uganda. > > Why? Well, [it seemed like a good idea at the time](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/Uganda.html): > [@](#): > > At the Sixth Zionist Congress at Basel on August 26, 1903, Herzl proposed the British Uganda Program as a temporary refuge for Jews in Russia in immediate danger. By a vote of 295-178 it was decided to send an expedition (“investigatory commission”) to examine the territory proposed. > > While Herzl made it clear that this program would not affect the ultimate aim of Zionism, a Jewish entity in the Land of Israel, the proposal aroused a storm at the Congress and nearly led to a split in the Zionist movement. The Jewish Territorialist Organization (ITO) was formed as a result of the unification of various groups who had supported Herzl’s Uganda proposals during the period 1903-1905. > > The Uganda Program was finally rejected by the Zionist movement at the Seventh Zionist Congress in 1905, but Nahum Syrkin and Israel Zangwill called an alternative conference to continue the plan of the Uganda scheme. > > The fortunes of the territorialist movement depended to no small degree on the seriousness of anti-Semitism on the one hand and the failure of the political dimension of Zionist activity on the other. So, for example, the movement’s ranks swelled somewhat following the pogroms in 1905, but declined considerably after the securing of the Balfour Declaration. > > Zangwill became the movement’s undisputed leader. After the rejection of the Uganda scheme on the grounds of impracticability by the British, Zangwill turned his attention to settlement in Canada and Australia. But opposition from local residents led him to abandon the scheme. Expeditions were sent to Mesopotamia (Iraq), Cyrenaica (Libya) and Angola but little came of these expeditions. > [@FriarTed](#): > > Personally, I like some location in the southwestern USA- it’ll be the Re-unification of the Tribes. Are you joking, or were you aware of the early 20th-century Galveston project? > [@](#): > > A project that had some concrete success was the Galveston scheme which contemplated the settlement of Jews in the American Southwest, in particular in Texas. The project received the assistance of Jacob Schiff, the American Jewish banker, and some 9,300 Jews arrived in that area between 1907-1914, through the Emigration Bureau of the Territorialist organization. ETA: > [@xtisme](#): > > What debate are you referring too? Who was having this debate? See above. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/19 "2010-01-12T05:54:51Z")
> [@Odaran09](#): > > They can even transport the buildings/land underneath that they hold sacred. > > …a large muslim population like to see them leave that area. It would be a lot easier to do it the other way around. They could dig up a foot of topsoil over all of Israel, put it in little vials, and give one to every muslim. Think that would satisfy everyone? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/20 "2010-01-12T05:56:19Z")
I don’t see anything about a permanent Jewish homeland in any of that. In fact, your cite seems to contradict your assertion that there was any ‘debate’ at all (‘While Herzl made it clear that this program would not affect the ultimate aim of Zionism, a Jewish entity in the Land of Israel, the proposal aroused a storm at the Congress and nearly led to a split in the Zionist movement.’) There is also the thing about there being a distinct dearth of Jews in Uganda, while there was already a large Jewish population in the Palestine… -XT [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607.md?page=2)