# Moving Isreal **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607 "2010-01-12T02:43:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/21 "2010-01-12T06:04:12Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I don’t see anything about a permanent Jewish homeland in any of that. In fact, your cite seems to contradict your assertion that there was any ‘debate’ at all Then I think you need to read it more carefully, particularly the part about the [Jewish Territorialist Organization and its leader Israel Zangwill](http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/PEOPLE/zangw.html), whose sometime advocacy of a Jewish nation somewhere other than the biblical land of Israel is quite well documented. > [@](#): > > Zangwill visited Eretz Yisrael in 1897, and became a vocal advocate of Jewish nationalism which, he argued, could be realized in any area, and not exclusively in Eretz Yisrael. Indeed, following the Zionist Congress’s rejection of the Uganda proposal in 1905, Zangwill became disaffected with the mainstream Zionist movement and founded the Jewish Territorial Organization, whose goal was to obtain territory–anywhere–for Jewish settlement. Other than settling several thousand Jews in Galveston, Texas, however, the group was largely ineffectual. Following the Balfour Declaration, Zangwill rejoined the official Zionist movement, but the pioneers’ difficulties in settling the land and in dealing with the Arabs, caused him to revert to his belief that a different territory would present a more viable option. > > Zangwill’s support for territorialism, rather than the classic form of Zionism, is related to the leitmotif of his writings, namely that Judaism and Jewish traditions are no longer compatible with the modern age. Hence, his belief in pragmatism rather than a spiritual or religious association with land. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/22 "2010-01-12T06:07:32Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > I am not sure what you mean. They would not be fighting actual Palestinians any more. The actual Palestinians would be quite content. They would have got their homeland back. But if you moved Israel to Bulgaria, say, the Bulgarians that you kicked out of their homes to make way for them would be fighting to get their homeland back. > > You are aware, are you, that the reason Palestinians hate Israel is that they used to live there, and were kicked out of their homeland in 1948 to make way for this new country? There was no particular bad blood between Arabs and Jews before that. The reason the _Arabs_ hated Israel originally is that Israel encompasses Jerusalem, which is a holy city for Muslims, too. It’s where Mohammed is said to have ascended to heaven. The reason the _Palestinian_s hate Israel is that the Israelis took most of their remaining territory (not unjustifiably) after the various Arab-Israeli wars. There are no holy cities in Bulgaria, as far as I am aware. If you carved out a section of largely empty land and called it Israel, most Bulgarians probably wouldn’t care, assuming the prior residents were appropriately compensated. That, of course, largely ignores the fact that there are plenty of essentially uninhabited regions left in the world. Hell, they can take their pick from the plains states, as far as I (and probably most Americans) are concerned. Even better if you integrate the new Israel somewhat with whatever nation-state you carve it from. With Israel comes excellent opportunity for economic development, top-flight military technology, and so on. Most countries would love to have them, in a purely economic discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/23 "2010-01-12T06:09:37Z")
If the whole Arab world hadn’t descended on Israel with the intention of “pushing the Jews into the sea”, and then _lost_ the war that _they started,_ the refugee problem wouldn’t be what it is today. Playing the blame game gets nowhere. What matters is that Israel exists in the here and now, and is not going anywhere, and any peace plan for the future needs to have the Arabs acknowledging that (and so far, I don’t really see them doing it.) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/24 "2010-01-12T06:10:44Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] Then I think you need to read it more carefully, particularly the part about the Jewish Territorialist Organization and its leader Israel Zangwill, whose sometime advocacy of a Jewish nation somewhere other than the biblical land of Israel is quite well documented. [/QUOTE] So, what I’m hearing from you is that if someone decides to split off from the mainstream view and form his or her own splinter group to do something that runs contrary to the majority view, that this constitutes serious ‘debate’. Correct? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/25 "2010-01-12T06:19:43Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > So, what I’m hearing from you is that if someone decides to split off from the mainstream view and form his or her own splinter group to do something that runs contrary to the majority view, that this constitutes serious ‘debate’. What you’re hearing from me is that there was serious debate in the early 20th-century Zionist movement about the practicability of creating a Jewish nation in the biblical land of Israel and the options for creating it somewhere else. You’re not hearing from me any claims that a **majority** of Zionists ever espoused Zangwill’s type of alternative Jewish nationalism in preference to establishing Jewish settlement in the biblical land of Israel. However, an opinion doesn’t need to have majority support in order to provoke serious debate. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/26 "2010-01-12T06:21:48Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] There are no holy cities in Bulgaria, as far as I am aware. If you carved out a section of largely empty land and called it Israel, most Bulgarians probably wouldn’t care, assuming the prior residents were appropriately compensated. That, of course, largely ignores the fact that there are plenty of essentially uninhabited regions left in the world. Hell, they can take their pick from the plains states, as far as I (and probably most Americans) are concerned. [/QUOTE] Are you talking about moving the entire population of Israel to some sovereign country and then carving out territory from within their borders, or are you talking about moving them to, say, Bulgaria, and then basically making them all Bulgarian citizens? If the later, then you are right (within the parameters of the fantasy that you COULD move all of the Israeli citizens, let alone all the building and such). However, if you are talking about carving out a new, sovereign nation of Israel from some other countries existing borders…well, I’d have to say that both Bulgaria and the US governments might be a bit tense about doing so, dontcha think? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/27 "2010-01-12T06:22:36Z")
Stalin also tried to create a Jewish settlement in Birobidzhan. It was called the “Jewish Autonomous Oblast” and Jews were settled there to engage in agriculture. It was a pretty shitty piece of land, all the way out in Siberia, and the project was not a success. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/28 "2010-01-12T06:29:57Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] What you’re hearing from me is that there was serious debate in the early 20th-century Zionist movement about the practicability of creating a Jewish nation in the biblical land of Israel and the options for creating it somewhere else [/QUOTE] The guy and his followers were fringe Kimstu. There was no serious debate within the Zionist community as a whole. This is like saying that there is serious debate in the US that we should all go back to living in trees, or that the nation would be better off if we had a totalitarian fascist/communist/moony/whatever government instead. There are fringe groups who espouse such things, but, well, they are FRINGE groups, ehe? > [@](#): > > You’re not hearing from me any claims that a majority of Zionists ever espoused Zangwill’s type of alternative Jewish nationalism in preference to establishing Jewish settlement in the biblical land of Israel. However, an opinion doesn’t need to have majority support in order to provoke serious debate. No, it doesn’t…but there wasn’t a serious debate over this. Just a fringe guy who was so far off the tangent of the mainstream and wasn’t taken seriously so that he formed his own splinter group to pursue different ends. To have a SERIOUS debate then both sides have to be able to capture a large enough number of advocates to make the debate real. There is serious debate between Republican plans and Democratic plans. There is no serious debate between Pub or Dem plans and, say, the plans of the US National Socialist Group, or the with one of the US Communist parties. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/29 "2010-01-12T06:41:09Z")
Create it as an autonomous area within the Republic of China on Taiwan, and watch the United Nations’ collective head explode. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/30 "2010-01-12T06:55:55Z")
Um, you want me to pack my bags and move… **why** exactly? 😕 I grew up here. I happen to like it here. Great weather, great beaches, wonderful big/small city both to live in and raise children in… Holiness doesn’t even come into it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/31 "2010-01-12T07:01:13Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > The guy and his followers were fringe Kimstu. There was no serious debate within the Zionist community as a whole. This is like saying that there is serious debate in the US that we should all go back to living in trees […] There are fringe groups who espouse such things, but, well, they are FRINGE groups, ehe? [Now you’re merely embarrassing yourself.](http://www.jstor.org/stable/4466406?seq=2) > [@](#): > > In 1903 the British government offered the Zionist movement territory in the East Africa protectorate for the purpose of establishing a Jewish colony. In 1905 the offer was formally declined much to the relief of the British government. […] > > Despite the action taken by the Zionists, some of their number were not willing to jettison East Africa. Eliezer Goldreich, the brother of the president of the South African Zionist Federation, was a case in point. […] [F]or Goldreich the promised land between the Nile and the Euphrates which included East Africa was the prophetic, legitimate, and only practical birthright of eleven million Israelites. […] > > A much more serious and rational effort to circumvent the resolution of the seventh congress was made by Israel Zangwill. […] > > Writing to Zangwill on New Year’s Day 1906 on behalf of the colonial secretary, [parliamentary undersecretary Winston S.] Churchill referred to the numerous and serious difficulties involved in a scheme to establish a self-governing Jewish colony in British East Africa. But he hoped that they could be surmounted and assured Zangwill that [Colonial Secretary Lord] Elgin would consider the subject in a spirit of profound sympathy. […] > > The Zionists, and particularly Leopold Greenberg, felt all along that Zangwill was doing their movement an immense amount of harm. […] He contended that Zangwill had once told him privately that Palestine was not essential to the Jewish national redemption and that he would be content elsewhere. Entire societies defected to ITO, and even more serious was the fact that Zangwill was negotiating with the British government and telling it that he represented the popular movement among the Jews. […] > > Since 1903 the population of the East Africa protectorate had increased […] [Churchill] was filled with apprehension by the answers to the inquiries he had made regarding local feeling. There would certainly be violence if the territory were ceded. Furthermore, there was the division among the Jews themselves. Emphasis added. Certainly, the alternative Jewish nationalism of Zangwill and the ITO was always a **minority** view among early 20th-century British Zionists, and I never asserted otherwise. But to claim that its influence never rose to the level of “serious debate” in the Zionist movement—or, even more absurdly, that it was comparable to tiny modern lunatic fringe groups advocating “that we should all go back to living in trees”—is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![manila](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@manila](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manila)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/32 "2010-01-12T07:18:58Z")
I believe Emigrants from Israel have exceeded Immigrants to Israel since 2005. I need to recheck my sources as it doesn’t really add up considering settlement expansion. Has anyone else heard this? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/33 "2010-01-12T07:27:58Z")
> [@Noone\_Special](#): > > Um, you want me to pack my bags and move… **why** exactly? 😕 > > I grew up here. I happen to like it here. Great weather, great beaches, wonderful big/small city both to live in and raise children in… > > Holiness doesn’t even come into it. Amen to that. Know what our holy sites are? The freeway system. Also the shopping malls, opera houses, libraries, movie theaters, universities, bars, restaurants and coffee shops; factories, farms, garages, artists’ studios and biotechnology research institutes. If you were able to move all of the above and more… we’d still tell you to fuck off, because this is our home. We’re not a problem that needs to be solved, we’re a country. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/34 "2010-01-12T07:39:47Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The reason the _Arabs_ hated Israel originally is that Israel encompasses Jerusalem, which is a holy city for Muslims, too. It’s where Mohammed is said to have ascended to heaven. > > The reason the _Palestinian_s hate Israel is that the Israelis took most of their remaining territory (not unjustifiably) after the various Arab-Israeli wars. That is bullshit. You need to read a book or something. Effectively all the territory of Israel was taken from Palestinian Arabs, and, from their perspective, totally unjustifiably. There were very fews Jews living in the area before 1948 (when the state of Israel was established in Palestine), and they were co-existing reasonably peaceably with the Palestinians before then. Jerusalem is a holy city for three religions. Maybe they would all like to own it, ideally, but there is no reason to think that Muslims, like Christians, would not be content with free access to it. Indeed, it is not even their holiest or second holiest city. Arabs beyond Palestine hate Israel today because of the way the Israelis have treated their Palestinian Arab brothers. Suppose some group managed to kick all the Americans out of Iowa so it that could be taken over by foreigners. How do you think the rest of America would feel about that? How do you think the former Iowans would feel? Mad as hell, and justifiably so. And do you seriously think that anywhere in this overpopulated world there is a region of decent land (i.e., not desert or tundra or similar) capable of supporting the population of Israel that is uninhabited, or even close to being uninhabited? Iowa might be the best bet, at that. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/35 "2010-01-12T07:54:58Z")
I have to ask… what books have \*you \*been reading? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Crap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.crap/32/3131_2.png) [@Dr.Crap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Crap)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/36 "2010-01-12T08:00:43Z")
> [@Odaran09](#): > > Extra credit: > If I invented a time machine and was able to go back to before the choose the location for Isreal, and assuming that I can convince them to pick somewhere else, how different would the world be? The more serious dispute is between the Saudis and the Iranians. The IP issue doesn’t presently affect the security of anyone but themselves and their immediate neighbors. I’m not denying the Palestinians have genuine grievances or deserve a state but Israel is being used as a distraction to cloak the failures and ambitions of political actors who are evidently more intelligent than you are, and I’m not talking about the Palestinians. Israel will soon recognize a Palestinian state, either via soon-to-start negotiations or the extension of America’s security umbrella to itself and the GA Arabs, which will facilitate meaningful cooperation between the two peoples. Iran will get the bomb, maybe the Turks will too. Afterwards, people who regularly ask the kinds of questions you do can use their capacity for vitriol and inability to be fatigued to further push another people towards greater militarism. But they’ll probably stick to the old ones. ---
**Author:** ![BigBertha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@BigBertha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigBertha)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/37 "2010-01-12T08:01:40Z")
Gee, why not move the ‘palestinians’ back to where they came from? because thats not Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/38 "2010-01-12T08:03:10Z")
Maybe we should all swap every 5 months or so. Dibs on Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/39 "2010-01-12T08:45:19Z")
Actually, on second thought, maybe this is worth examining :rolleyes: I suggest we try a smaller model experiment though… Y’know, just to make sure this whole “moving a major population center” thing is feasible… So, let’s just take New Orleans and move it 50 miles upriver so it doesn’t get drowned in _Kartina II_. Heck, let’s just take the French Quarter and plunk it down next to Baton Rouge. With the money saved by not moving the rest, we could build much **better** houses and infrastructure for the rest of the erstwhile population of NOLA. It would also give the Louisiana Assemblycritters something to do in the evening without having to go out of town. Win-win! What…? No…?! Why not…!!! 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607/40 "2010-01-12T08:51:51Z")
> [@Odaran09](#): > > Extra credit: > If I invented a time machine and was able to go back to before the choose the location for Isreal, and assuming that I can convince them to pick somewhere else, how different would the world be? Several thousand years back, you mean? Gee, I don’t know, the trek from Ur to California (a place including locations whose climate and geology are similar to those of Israel, making it a suitable Promised Land) might have taken a while. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moving-isreal/524607.md?page=3)