# Mozart Opera in Berlin Cancelled for Fear of Muslims: Complex Story! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2006, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mozart-opera-in-berlin-cancelled-for-fear-of-muslims-complex-story/374353 "2006-09-27T13:37:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2006, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mozart-opera-in-berlin-cancelled-for-fear-of-muslims-complex-story/374353/41 "2006-09-27T23:32:24Z")
[QUOTE=Billdo] It is very simple: The director of the opera is being a troll. And he’s being a very successful one. Think of this as an SDMB thread. The OP takes a recognized work and adds a little bit onto it to make it deliberately provacative. When the predictable shitstorm happens, he won’t remove it, claiming artistic freedom. It turns into a round-robin debate over artistic freedom aganst the terrorists against those would give in to terrorist threats. What is forgotten is that the instigator deliberately stirred this up and unreasonably refused to remove the unnecessary distraction. This guy is the type of subtle troll that would last several months here, get pitted half a dozen times times, survive by being just provactave enough for quite a few rounds, and eventually overplay his hand and get banned. [/QUOTE] If I’m ever emperor of the world I’m going to outlaw all analogies in political debates. What a person’s singular artistic vision has to do with a message board conversation is beyond me. An artist is presenting his own version of a work. He has modified the original work. This is something that has been done over and over and over again in all fields of art. You find this particular modification stupid. Perhaps it is. I don’t know, not having seen the work, but it sounds like it could be overly didactic. That’s your judgement and you are certainly entitled to it. However, the Artist found a venue for his work. The proprietors did not object to the content. They did not say “Hey, this bit with the heads of religious figures is pretty dumb.” It wasn’t until they were threatened–by a single anonymous note–that they wanted to change the play. They weren’t changing it because they thought it was dumb, they were changing to placate bullys and thugs. What you and **jsgoddess** and **dropzone** and the theater owners fail to realize is that once you start placating thugs, there’s no stopping them. These fanatics now know that if anything threatens their delicate sensibilities, all they have to do is threaten violence and they can shut it down. Also, are you saying that any art that challenges religion is trolling? Or is it only trolling if it’s bad art? Should all art that criticizes and challenges religion be banned, or just art that criticizes Islam? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mozart-opera-in-berlin-cancelled-for-fear-of-muslims-complex-story/374353/42 "2006-09-28T01:05:51Z")
[QUOTE=Billdo] This guy is the type of subtle troll that would last several months here, get pitted half a dozen times times, survive by being just provactave enough for quite a few rounds, and eventually overplay his hand and get banned. [/QUOTE] And until that happens, as long as the ostensible troll’s actions do not extend beyond the designated behavioral boundaries, posting privileges will not be revoked, and said individual’s status as troll remains merely ostensible. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mozart-opera-in-berlin-cancelled-for-fear-of-muslims-complex-story/374353/43 "2006-09-28T02:03:18Z")
[QUOTE=Eve] Not as cut-and-dried as it seems; there are a lot of gray areas, amd twists and turns, in this story: > [@](#): > > The disputed scene is not part of Mozart’s opera, but was added by the director, Hans Neuenfels. Hmmm. Seems like no one’s really right and no one’s really wrong here. [/QUOTE] Hey, I think Beethoven missed a chance for a little more drama there at the end of _Eroica_, so I fixed it for him. ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mozart-opera-in-berlin-cancelled-for-fear-of-muslims-complex-story/374353/44 "2006-09-28T06:25:15Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] The OP cite says: “She said she was told in August that the police had received an anonymous threat, but she acted only after extensive deliberations.” Was that part mistaken? [/QUOTE] Apparently yes. E.g. according to two of Germany’s leading newspapers, [Die Zeit](http://www.zeit.de/news/artikel/2006/09/27/75386.xml) and [FAZ](http://www.faz.net/s/Rub28FC768942F34C5B8297CC6E16FFC8B4/Doc~ED5910B53459D46279B8EE811A074E25F~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html) (both German), the minister of the interior of Berlin denied that there had been a concrete threat. It has been reported that they had received a call from a concerned (presumably non-muslim) viewer. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mozart-opera-in-berlin-cancelled-for-fear-of-muslims-complex-story/374353/45 "2006-09-28T12:53:02Z")
[QUOTE=kellner] Apparently yes. E.g. according to two of Germany’s leading newspapers, [Die Zeit](http://www.zeit.de/news/artikel/2006/09/27/75386.xml) and [FAZ](http://www.faz.net/s/Rub28FC768942F34C5B8297CC6E16FFC8B4/Doc~ED5910B53459D46279B8EE811A074E25F~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html) (both German), the minister of the interior of Berlin denied that there had been a concrete threat. [/QUOTE] Thanks for that. That makes this story _more_ disturbing to me, not less. ---
**Author:** ![Tyrrell\_McAllister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tyrrell_mcallister/32/16772_2.png) [@Tyrrell\_McAllister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tyrrell_McAllister)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mozart-opera-in-berlin-cancelled-for-fear-of-muslims-complex-story/374353/46 "2006-09-28T13:38:41Z")
Update: [At German Conference on Muslim Relations, One Vote Is Unanimous: Mozart Must Go On](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/28/world/europe/28germany.html?&partner=homepage&pagewanted=all) > [@](#): > > BERLIN, Sept. 27 — Amid all the issues that divide Germany’s Muslims and non-Muslims — from women’s rights to the teaching of Islam in schools — there was one point on which the 30 participants in a landmark conference held here on Wednesday could agree, according to its organizer. > > They would like to see the Deutsche Oper of Berlin reinstate the Mozart opera it canceled earlier this week after receiving an anonymous threat that the production — which features a scene with the severed head of the Prophet Muhammad — could put the opera house at risk. > > […] > > “There was general agreement that we would like to see the opera come back,” said Mehmet Yildirim, the general secretary of the Turkish-Islamic Union. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mozart-opera-in-berlin-cancelled-for-fear-of-muslims-complex-story/374353/47 "2006-09-28T14:40:42Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] What you and **jsgoddess** and **dropzone** and the theater owners fail to realize is that once you start placating thugs, there’s no stopping them. These fanatics now know that if anything threatens their delicate sensibilities, all they have to do is threaten violence and they can shut it down. [/QUOTE] And I, as a hypothetical business owner, know that it is not necessarily in my business’s interest for me to take a heroic stance in the face of fanaticism. I appreciate your argument but I’d rather you didn’t drag me, my business, and my customers into your crusade. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mozart-opera-in-berlin-cancelled-for-fear-of-muslims-complex-story/374353/48 "2006-09-28T15:58:51Z")
[QUOTE=dropzone] And I, as a hypothetical business owner, know that it is not necessarily in my business’s interest for me to take a heroic stance in the face of fanaticism. I appreciate your argument but I’d rather you didn’t drag me, my business, and my customers into your crusade. [/QUOTE] Excellent! Now I, as a hypothetical Muslim fanatic, know where you stand. My next demand is that you fire your Jewish employees, and enforce a dress code consistent with Islamic principles, mandating that all female employees wear a hijab. Oh wait. I’ve just noticed you’re operating a theater. A _theater_? We’re not having that. Close down at once! Or, if you wish to remain open, only perform works pleasing to the prophet, denouncing the Zionists and their American slaves. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mozart-opera-in-berlin-cancelled-for-fear-of-muslims-complex-story/374353/49 "2006-09-28T16:18:08Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] My next demand is… [/QUOTE] Well, you haven’t actually had a first demand yet, hypothetical or otherwise. As far as I can tell, Islam has been brought into this discussion by non-Muslims only. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mozart-opera-in-berlin-cancelled-for-fear-of-muslims-complex-story/374353/50 "2006-09-28T16:36:21Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] Well, you haven’t actually had a first demand yet, hypothetical or otherwise. As far as I can tell, Islam has been brought into this discussion by non-Muslims only. [/QUOTE] Right, which as you point out, makes the story more disturbing. A bully’s ultimate goal is to have his victims so cowed they will do his bidding on their own. The riots over the Danish cartoons have gotten people cowed enough that they will obey the Islamic precept not to depict the prophet, without any actual threats. Time will tell what the next demand will be. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mozart-opera-in-berlin-cancelled-for-fear-of-muslims-complex-story/374353/51 "2006-09-28T16:58:15Z")
I think we in the Western world had better decide just how much power we are going to allow Islam , to lord over us. I find it disturbing that a bunch of ignorant, backward people can dictate to Western nations, about what they can publish in newspapers, see in movies and plays, etc. I’ll change my mind when islamic counties allow freedom of speech. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mozart-opera-in-berlin-cancelled-for-fear-of-muslims-complex-story/374353/52 "2006-09-28T17:02:22Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] Right, which as you point out, makes the story more disturbing. A bully’s ultimate goal is to have his victims so cowed they will do his bidding on their own. [/QUOTE] I find it more disturbing because it is assigning a position to the Muslim community, then assuming that it’s true, and then reacting to it. And that then causes people like you to blame the Muslims for this without them having done it. People can only be held accountable for the actions they take, not the actions some hypothetical could have them taking at some point in the future that you would object to. ---
**Author:** ![velvetjones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/5f9b8f/32.png) [@velvetjones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velvetjones)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mozart-opera-in-berlin-cancelled-for-fear-of-muslims-complex-story/374353/53 "2006-09-28T17:25:15Z")
Does this mean the terrorists have won? That is meant only partly sarcastically. It seems as though they’ve succeeded in terrifying people to the point that they’re censoring themselves. What next? ---
**Author:** ![Jakonovski](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e47c2d/32.png) [@Jakonovski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jakonovski)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mozart-opera-in-berlin-cancelled-for-fear-of-muslims-complex-story/374353/54 "2006-09-28T18:31:10Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] Right, which as you point out, makes the story more disturbing. A bully’s ultimate goal is to have his victims so cowed they will do his bidding on their own. The riots over the Danish cartoons have gotten people cowed enough that they will obey the Islamic precept not to depict the prophet, without any actual threats. Time will tell what the next demand will be. [/QUOTE] There is nobody bullying you or anyone else here. That’s the facts. The rest is hysteria and the quoted post is rationalising said hysteria. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mozart-opera-in-berlin-cancelled-for-fear-of-muslims-complex-story/374353/55 "2006-09-28T19:01:51Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] Excellent! Now I, as a hypothetical Muslim fanatic, know where you stand. [/QUOTE] And I, the hypothetical theater owner, reserve the right to tell you to, “Bite me. I made a concession because I agreed that the scene in the opera was unnecessarily inflammatory and offensive (and I had a couple operas that would probably do better business anyway to replace that one), but I have a business to run. If you want to make any more changes in the way things work in this country you’re going to have to go through the same process every other jerk with an axe to grind has to go through. I suggest buying airtime on an obscure UHF station and get donations until you have enough to buy a bunch of politicians, but keep in mind that there are lots of other people doing the same thing and lots of them won’t agree with you.” Okay, that’s the red-blooded American legislative process but I assume it’s much the same in Germany. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2006, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mozart-opera-in-berlin-cancelled-for-fear-of-muslims-complex-story/374353/56 "2006-09-29T00:06:04Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] I find it more disturbing because it is assigning a position to the Muslim community, then assuming that it’s true, and then reacting to it. And that then causes people like you to blame the Muslims for this without them having done it. People can only be held accountable for the actions they take, not the actions some hypothetical could have them taking at some point in the future that you would object to. [/QUOTE] It’s not assigning a position to “the Muslim Community.” It’s noting that said community contains a fairly large minority of violent fanatics who must apparently be placated at the cost of free expression. You aren’t saying that the Muslim community contains no violent fanatics, are you? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2006, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mozart-opera-in-berlin-cancelled-for-fear-of-muslims-complex-story/374353/57 "2006-09-29T00:10:57Z")
[QUOTE=dropzone] And I, the hypothetical theater owner, reserve the right to tell you to, “Bite me. I made a concession because I agreed that the scene in the opera was unnecessarily inflammatory and offensive (and I had a couple operas that would probably do better business anyway to replace that one), but I have a business to run. If you want to make any more changes in the way things work in this country you’re going to have to go through the same process every other jerk with an axe to grind has to go through. I suggest buying airtime on an obscure UHF station and get donations until you have enough to buy a bunch of politicians, but keep in mind that there are lots of other people doing the same thing and lots of them won’t agree with you.” Okay, that’s the red-blooded American legislative process but I assume it’s much the same in Germany. 😃 [/QUOTE] I have absolutly no idea what this means. Politicians? UHF stations? What does any of this have to do with standing up to fanatics. > [@Jakonovski](#): > > There is nobody bullying you or anyone else here. That’s the facts. The rest is hysteria and the quoted post is rationalising said hysteria. Tell it to Theo van Gogh. Oh, wait, you can’t. He’s dead. He can’t possibly have been murdered by a Muslim fanatic, since, according to you, they don’t exist. Maybe it was a Sasquatch that killed him. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2006, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mozart-opera-in-berlin-cancelled-for-fear-of-muslims-complex-story/374353/58 "2006-09-29T01:00:15Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] I have absolutly no idea what this means. Politicians? UHF stations? What does any of this have to do with standing up to fanatics. Tell it to Theo van Gogh. Oh, wait, you can’t. He’s dead. He can’t possibly have been murdered by a Muslim fanatic, since, according to you, they don’t exist. Maybe it was a Sasquatch that killed him. [/QUOTE] Theo van Gogh was gay, by the way. The Netherlands has long been one of the most open societies in the world, and one of the least homophobic. But like many western countries, they went too far and started naiively letting Muslims immigrate. Today, for the first time in a couple of generation, gay and lesbian Netherlanders have known fear and gay-bashing. NOT at the hands of the Dutch people who remain as tolerant as ever, but because of gangs of Muslim immigrant men who make it their duty to cruise around gay neighbourhoods beating up and harassing gays. Reports from gay orgaizations in the Netherlands say it is getting worse all the time. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2006, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mozart-opera-in-berlin-cancelled-for-fear-of-muslims-complex-story/374353/59 "2006-09-29T01:15:54Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] You aren’t saying that the Muslim community contains no violent fanatics, are you? [/QUOTE] Please point to any large group with no violent fanatics. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2006, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mozart-opera-in-berlin-cancelled-for-fear-of-muslims-complex-story/374353/60 "2006-09-29T02:13:28Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] Please point to any large group with no violent fanatics. [/QUOTE] What he was actually saying is that the Muslim community contains a “fairly large minority” of those violent fanatics, which is to say, more than the average large group right now. [QUOTE=Valteron] The Netherlands has long been one of the most open societies in the world, and one of the least homophobic. But like many western countries, they went too far and started naiively letting Muslims immigrate. [/QUOTE] Feel free to give a cite if you have one, but I think this is a problem Europe is having and not one the United States is likely to have. I think the Muslims who are coming here generally do want to assimilate, while that doesn’t seem to be the case in Europe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mozart-opera-in-berlin-cancelled-for-fear-of-muslims-complex-story/374353.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mozart-opera-in-berlin-cancelled-for-fear-of-muslims-complex-story/374353.md?page=4)