# Mr. Krebbs, I Pit You **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 21, 2009, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-krebbs-i-pit-you/518402 "2009-11-21T14:23:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-krebbs-i-pit-you/518402/61 "2009-11-23T21:34:22Z")
> [@Mr.Krebbs](#): > > In my mind, common sense would entail not doing things that would make others want to blow you up, but whatever. Considering the source, this is one of the funniest posts in a while. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Krebbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5fc32e/32.png) [@Mr.Krebbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Krebbs)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-krebbs-i-pit-you/518402/62 "2009-11-23T21:39:32Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Considering the source, this is one of the funniest posts in a while. It sounds like you have a short fuse. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-krebbs-i-pit-you/518402/63 "2009-11-24T02:29:57Z")
> [@Mr.Krebbs](#): > > Ah, I forgot that a person’s political leanings and the contents of his bookshelf were the best means of divining his true intentions in any given situation. Certainly, if the the situation involves actions obviously political in motive. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-krebbs-i-pit-you/518402/64 "2009-11-24T04:08:25Z")
> [@Mr.Krebbs](#): > > The individuals killed are often not being held accountable for anything, except being in the wrong place at the wrong time. As **Blake** pointed out, this is called collateral damage and collateral damage is often considered an acceptable consequence by terrorists (not to mention governments) planning and executing an attack. How are you defining “collateral”? What distinguishes collateral damage from intended damage, in your view? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-krebbs-i-pit-you/518402/65 "2009-11-24T05:18:35Z")
> [@Bookkeeper](#): > > And Vicki Weaver was apparently hit by a through-and-through bullet that hit Harris first, and then went through the door she was standing behind and hit her. LE snipers aren’t supposed to shoot when they don’t know who or what else may be in the line of fire. > > My take is that the Weaver shootings were the result of a poorly co-ordinated and incompetently managed operation rather than the deliberate murder/execution operation it is sometimes portrayed as. Where did you get that from? The bullet that killed Vicki Weaver passed through her and then hit Kevin Harris, along with fragments of her cranium. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Krebbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5fc32e/32.png) [@Mr.Krebbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Krebbs)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-krebbs-i-pit-you/518402/66 "2009-11-24T16:33:36Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > How are you defining “collateral”? What distinguishes collateral damage from intended damage, in your view? Collateral damage may be unintended damage or damage that accompanies intended damage. Sometimes, particularly in terrorist attacks, the intended damage would be greatly diminished without collateral damage. Intended damage is what the party doing the damage feels it will accomplish with its action. ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-krebbs-i-pit-you/518402/67 "2009-11-25T21:51:55Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Where did you get that from? The bullet that killed Vicki Weaver passed through her and then hit Kevin Harris, along with fragments of her cranium. Sorry, misread the [Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge)a bit - it actually says “\*Horiuchi fired a second bullet, which passed through Vicki Weaver’s head, killing her, and wounded Harris in the chest. Vicki Weaver was \*\*standing behind the door \*_through which Harris was entering the house_”. I frequently read comments that the agents “shot Weaver’s unarmed wife” as if was a deliberate murder when the critical point is that he couldn’t even see her through the door (and shouldn’t have fired when he couldn’t see what was in the line of fire, but that was incompetence, not malice). ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-krebbs-i-pit-you/518402/68 "2009-11-26T07:10:16Z")
If Harris was entering the house and Vicki was standing behind the door, how is it possible for the bullet go through her head before hitting him in the chest? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2009, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-krebbs-i-pit-you/518402/69 "2009-11-27T04:00:23Z")
McVeigh was pretty much nuts, but if anyone has collateral responsibility, it’s the right wing media for ludicrously demagoging those incidents as being emblematic of a police state government and making morons think they were being oppressed. The Branch Davidians killed themselves, by the way. They killed their children too. They were garbage. I don’t know or care too much about Ruby Ridge, but even if there was misconduct in that raid, it’s still beyond asinine to say that federal workers in Oklahoma City were “responsible” for it. There is misconduct, and there are questionable or unlawful killings all the time by cops in city police departments. That doesn’t mean the water department or fucking Parks and Recreation is responsible. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2009, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-krebbs-i-pit-you/518402/70 "2009-11-27T04:11:33Z")
> [@Bookkeeper](#): > > Sorry, misread the [Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge)a bit - it actually says “\*Horiuchi fired a second bullet, which passed through Vicki Weaver’s head, killing her, and wounded Harris in the chest. Vicki Weaver was \*\*standing behind the door \*_through which Harris was entering the house_”. I frequently read comments that the agents “shot Weaver’s unarmed wife” as if was a deliberate murder when the critical point is that he couldn’t even see her through the door (and shouldn’t have fired when he couldn’t see what was in the line of fire, but that was incompetence, not malice). > [@Pedro](#): > > If Harris was entering the house and Vicki was standing behind the door, how is it possible for the bullet go through her head before hitting him in the chest? Accounts of the early part of the siege are somewhat garbled because the only witnesses were Horiuchi, another sniper, the Weavers and Kevin Harris. Reconstruction after the fact was difficult because Vicki Weaver’s body was moved (for obvious reasons) and Kevin Harris moved (not being dead). The only certain aspect is that the round passed through Vicki’s head first and then entered Harris’ body, because pathologists were able to match the skull fragments that entered Harris along with the bullet. The Weavers believe Vicki _was_ deliberately murdered to induce them to give themselves up (being the true “head” of the household). Obviously their testimony is hardly going to be objective. On the other hand, Horiuchi never testified in open court (since manslaughter charges against him were dismissed). ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2009, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-krebbs-i-pit-you/518402/71 "2009-11-27T06:38:17Z")
> [@Bookkeeper](#): > > And Vicki Weaver was apparently hit by a through-and-through bullet that hit Harris first, and then went through the door she was standing behind and hit her. LE snipers aren’t supposed to shoot when they don’t know who or what else may be in the line of fire. > > My take is that the Weaver shootings were the result of a poorly co-ordinated and incompetently managed operation rather than the deliberate murder/execution operation it is sometimes portrayed as. Well naturally – I didn’t say otherwise. Just that Sammy was obviously armed, well, dangerous. Vicki didn’t deserve what happened to her. The whole thing was a huge fuck-up. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Krebbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5fc32e/32.png) [@Mr.Krebbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Krebbs)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-krebbs-i-pit-you/518402/72 "2009-11-28T16:29:29Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The Branch Davidians killed themselves, by the way. They killed their children too. They were garbage. This has never been proven. It has, however, been proven that the FBI used pyrotechnic CS gas delivery systems and concealed all documentation of their use in 1994, even though they were specifically ordered not to use pyrotechnic devices in the first place. Of course, the use of Flite-Rite grenades was not revealed until after the government first decided that Davidians started those fires (based solely on “ominous warnings” given by Davidians, if you believe Wikipedia). > [@](#): > > I don’t know or care too much about Ruby Ridge, but even if there was misconduct in that raid, it’s still beyond asinine to say that federal workers in Oklahoma City were “responsible” for it. What is this in response to? No one in this thread or in **carnivorousplant** ’s has indicated that federal employees in Oklahoma City were responsible for Waco or Ruby Ridge. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-krebbs-i-pit-you/518402/73 "2009-11-28T16:48:59Z")
> [@Mr.Krebbs](#): > > This has never been proven. Yes it has. You are misinformed. All of the fires started from inside the compound. The BD’s had been practicing suicide drills for months. They had barrels of fuel ready to go for just that purpose. The bullets found in the kids’ heads came from their own guns. The Feds’ only mistake was in not listening to the cult experts who warned them that the BD’s would kill themselves if the feds didn’t back off a little bit. By pressing in on them, they were playing right into Koresh’s Armageddon fantasies. By backing off they would have proven him wrong, and had a better chance. Koresh was a child molester too, by the way. He liked to forcibly rape 10-year-old girls. A bullet in the head was too good for him, and too good for the parents who knowingly provided him with his child “brides.” Why anybody wants to make romantic heroes out of these anti-social, suicidal, child beating, child raping, child murdering lunatics is a mystery to me. > [@](#): > > What is this in response to? No one in this thread or in **carnivorousplant** ’s has indicated that federal employees in Oklahoma City were responsible for Waco or Ruby Ridge. “Being held accountable for their actions.” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Krebbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5fc32e/32.png) [@Mr.Krebbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Krebbs)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-krebbs-i-pit-you/518402/74 "2009-11-28T17:29:47Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Yes it has. You are misinformed. All of the fires started from inside the compound. The BD’s had been practicing suicide drills for months. They had barrels of fuel ready to go for just that purpose. The bullets found in the kids’ heads came from their own guns. No shit. CS gas was shot inside the compound; it doesn’t do much go to aim gas grenades at the outside of buildings. Yes, Davidians did shoot some of their own people when it became clear that they weren’t able to leave the compound. This does not excuse the actions of the feds. > [@](#): > > Koresh was a child molester too, by the way. He liked to forcibly rape 10-year-old girls. A bullet in the head was too good for him, and too good for the parents who knowingly provided him with his child “brides.” Why anybody wants to make romantic heroes out of these anti-social, suicidal, child beating, child raping, child murdering lunatics is a mystery to me. No one is making a hero out of Koresh. He was a child molester, no question. Did he and his followers deserve what happened to them? No; they deserved be to tried legally under the law. If each personally violently resisted arrest, only then could the government preempt trial and legally kill them. > [@](#): > > “Being held accountable for their actions.” Being “held accountable” is very different from actually being responsible. For instance, if Person A and Person B commit an armed robbery and Person A is shot and killed by police during the robbery, Person B can be charged with the murder of Person A, thus **held accountable for murder** - even though no murder was ever committed. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-krebbs-i-pit-you/518402/75 "2009-11-28T18:41:26Z")
The victims of Murrah were no more “accountable” than they were “responsible.” The Branch Davidians _couldn’t_ be tried, because they fucking _killed themselves_. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Krebbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5fc32e/32.png) [@Mr.Krebbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Krebbs)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-krebbs-i-pit-you/518402/76 "2009-11-28T18:47:22Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The victims of Murrah were no more “accountable” than they were “responsible.” Ah, taking out the most important word - that word is “held,” by the way - makes you right. > [@](#): > > The Branch Davidians _couldn’t_ be tried, because they fucking _killed themselves_. Once again, not proven and a very dubious interpretation of the events in question to boot. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-krebbs-i-pit-you/518402/77 "2009-11-28T19:21:14Z")
It’s a fact. They practiced it for months. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Krebbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5fc32e/32.png) [@Mr.Krebbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Krebbs)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-krebbs-i-pit-you/518402/78 "2009-11-28T20:17:20Z")
Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-krebbs-i-pit-you/518402/79 "2009-11-28T20:22:15Z")
> [@Mr.Krebbs](#): > > Cite? If you are given a proper cite, will you promise to never to bring the subject again, here or elsewhere? ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-krebbs-i-pit-you/518402/80 "2009-11-28T20:24:37Z")
> [@Mr.Krebbs](#): > > My “belief” that the US engages in acts of terrorism? [Please; it’s a fucking fact.](http://themodulator.org/archives/hiroshima-damage.jpg) L oh fucking L. The atomic bombings weren’t terrorism, you nitwit, they were the ultimate expression of the strategy of “total war”, which was universally applied by all sides in the Second World War and held that there was little distinction between direct engagement between armed forces and attacks on civilian targets that were seen as contributing to an enemy’s military machine. Not that I expect you could possibly understand this since your babble about the Murrah Building (the smoking ruins of which I saw with my own fucking eyes as a twelve year old) comes straight from the type of dangerous rightwing freakshows that were the definition of domestic terrorism before 9/11. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-krebbs-i-pit-you/518402.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-krebbs-i-pit-you/518402.md?page=5)