# Mr. Loaf: a teachable moment **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 22, 2022, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212 "2022-01-22T05:04:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hatchie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hatchie/32/3983_2.png) [@Hatchie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hatchie)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212/21 "2022-01-22T22:14:40Z")
When you say it, do you say “ess”, or go sssss, like a snake? (Since it’s not an initial, you can’t just say the name of the letter, you have to pronounce it.) ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212/22 "2022-01-22T22:22:34Z")
> [@Hatchie](#): > > When you say it, do you say “ess”, or go sssss “It’s pronounced like the S in Illinois.” ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212/23 "2022-01-22T22:59:35Z")
> [@Briny\_Deep](#): > > I’ve heard tales of people who went through their whole military career as “Carol NMI Cairo” (for example), because they have no middle initial yet the personnel database will not accept that. NMI = “No Middle Initial.” The computer only accepts 3 names? What about the many people who have only 1 name, or have 5 names? ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212/24 "2022-01-22T23:17:13Z")
Oh I know, right? The story could be apocryphal but if true at all, this was in the bad old days when regular people had regular names, goddamit: first, middle, and last; and if you didn’t fit that mold, the computer couldn’t handle you at all. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212/25 "2022-01-22T23:26:25Z")
The story pre-dates computers. I’ve read lots of WW2 references that list a name as Joe NMI Blow. Had to be something about every space on the form being filled in, or something like that, because they wouldn’t computerize that stuff until after Vietnam. ---
**Author:** ![Hatchie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hatchie/32/3983_2.png) [@Hatchie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hatchie)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212/26 "2022-01-22T23:42:46Z")
Remembered another one: it’s Lead Belly, two words. I’ll go a bit easier on anyone who writes it as “Leadbelly”, since it is derived from the folk singer’s last name, Huddie William Ledbetter. He did always use the two-word form, though. (They taught us about him in grade school, and I thought it was the best, funniest name I ever heard, and pictured him as a singing potbelly stove.) ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212/27 "2022-01-22T23:59:14Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > The story pre-dates computers. I’ve read lots of WW2 references that list a name as Joe NMI Blow. I remember reading in the _Star Trek: The Next Generation Companion_ that an okudagram on a computer screen listed Lieutenant Commander Data’s full name as being NFN NMI Data. No First Name, No Middle Initial. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212/28 "2022-01-23T00:47:55Z")
I have a former coworker who legally changed his name to Megazone, just one name, no first name. Not Mr Zone, he was (and still is) Mr Megazone. ---
**Author:** ![Hatchie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hatchie/32/3983_2.png) [@Hatchie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hatchie)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212/29 "2022-01-23T01:01:00Z")
One more. It used to be “the Ukraine” in the Soviet days, now it’s just Ukraine. To be honest, I’m not sure why. I thought those Slavic languages didn’t even have articles, which is why Boris Badenov (cartoon crypto-Slav) would say things like “rain in Spain is mainly on plain”. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212/30 "2022-01-23T01:11:22Z")
They don’t. If you transliterate the name, it comes out something like “Ukraina”. ETA The Soviet days, well obviously it was the Ukranian SSR (Ukrainskaya Sovietskaya Sotsialisticheskaya Respublika in Russian) ---
**Author:** ![Hatchie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hatchie/32/3983_2.png) [@Hatchie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hatchie)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212/31 "2022-01-23T01:25:18Z")
Yes, so why did we in the Anglophone world attach a “the” to it in the past? I don’t know the history of the name, or whether it was a sovereign entity in the pre-Soviet days - maybe it was just a region, like we might call part of Mexico “the Baja”; now it’s an independent state, worthy of a formal name - I’m just throwing out guesses. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212/32 "2022-01-23T01:27:02Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > “It’s pronounced like the S in Illinois.” Nice. Up til now I’ve always just said “es” but I think I’m going with this in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212/33 "2022-01-23T01:30:49Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > Up til now I’ve always just said “es” but I think I’m going with this in the future. Whereas I will forevermore refer to the man who succeeded FDR as Harry Ssssss Truman. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212/34 "2022-01-23T01:31:13Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > “It’s pronounced like the S in Illinois.” In the word “scent,” is the s silent or the c? ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212/35 "2022-01-23T01:33:30Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > In the word “scent,” is the s silent or the c? You don’t pronounce both? Much like the “h”’in Cool Whip, the hard “c” is subtle, but it’s there. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212/36 "2022-01-23T01:42:23Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > You don’t pronounce both? Much like the “h”’in Cool Whip, the hard “c” is subtle, but it’s there. Wiktionary says: Sent: [IPA](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:International_Phonetic_Alphabet)([key](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:English_pronunciation)): /sɛnt/ Cent: [IPA](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:International_Phonetic_Alphabet)([key](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:English_pronunciation)): /sɛnt/ Scent: [IPA](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:International_Phonetic_Alphabet)([key](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:English_pronunciation)): /sɛnt/ AIUI some say that we lazy Americans don’t pronounce wh- words right. For instance, white should be pronounced hwite (so it would be cool hwip). ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212/37 "2022-01-23T01:47:54Z")
> [@Hatchie](#): > > Yes, so why did we in the Anglophone world attach a “the” to it in the past? I don’t know the history of the name, or whether it was a sovereign entity in the pre-Soviet days - maybe it was just a region, like we might call part of Mexico “the Baja”; now it’s an independent state, worthy of a formal name - I’m just throwing out guesses. If I recall correctly, Sudan gets the same treatment. If you’re referring to the geographic region, or a province of a larger empire, it’s “the Sudan”. But the independent country is “Sudan”. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212/38 "2022-01-23T14:58:17Z")
When I was in (1993-2001), things were computerized, but it was the tail end of the bad old days for diversity, and the military couldn’t handle hyphenated names, nor dual names of Hispanic recruits. You either had to pick one, or cram them together, if they were short enough. If your hyphenated name happened to be Smith-Jones, you could be Smithjones, because a 10-letter named worked, but over a certain number of letters didn’t fit, so most Hispanic people had to pick one or the other. I have a vague recollection of the US military changing this policy a few years ago to accommodate two last names for Hispanic recruits, which makes me assume they must have as well, for non-Hispanics with two last names. I’m not sure what happens to people with more than one middle name, but it is entirely consistent that the military would insist on NMI for people with no middle name, because on other forms I filled out, you couldn’t leave boxes empty-- you had to put n/a if that was the case. The idea was that someone could write something false in there after the fact. And the US military doesn’t want that. That could be only for nefarious purposes. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212/39 "2022-01-23T22:55:27Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > I’m not sure what happens to people with more than one middle name, but it is entirely consistent that the military would insist on NMI for people with no middle name, because on other forms I filled out, you couldn’t leave boxes empty-- you had to put n/a if that was the case. The idea was that someone could write something false in there after the fact. And the US military doesn’t want that. That could be only for nefarious purposes. I get that all of the boxes need to be filled. Leaving aside for the moment the problem of there not being enough boxes, note that that still doesn’t answer the question of what to do with a soldier with a single name. Enter him or her as Joeblow NMI NLN, NFN Joeblow NLN, or NFN NMI Joeblow? As for multiple names, let us just note that even with one form field, the guy’s last name might be “van den Bergh”–note the spaces! A first name could be “José María”—that is a single given name, not two. I’m not even sure that Hispanic people tend to have very many names compared to, say, Lusitanian, who are never (well, rarely) going to have a single last name, more like at least two, could be four or even more, along with multiple given names and middle names, some of which might have spaces and/or hyphens in them. [Example: Pedro de Alcântara João Carlos Leopoldo Salvador Bibiano Francisco Xavier de Paula Leocádio Miguel Gabriel Rafael Gonzaga de Habsburgo-Lorena e Bragança. Don’t forget the accents!] You would pick some, but easy to end up with a “de Paula” or something with a hyphen or space in it even so. ---
**Author:** ![phs3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8491ac/32.png) [@phs3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phs3)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2022, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212/40 "2022-01-24T06:38:05Z")
Friend of my daughter’s has first name K. Just the letter. Fortunately she’s in a field where she’ll never work for a large corporation–I can only imagine the hassles trying to get her network and email set up, with IT saying “need full name”. Although the Indians who don’t have first names might have fixed that fetish by now in some companies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212.md?page=3)