# Mr. Loaf: a teachable moment **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 22, 2022, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212 "2022-01-22T05:04:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2022, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212/81 "2022-10-12T02:16:17Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > What do you mean, “would be”? That’s how it’s pronounced. Most of the US is under the “wine-whine” merger, where the two sounds are exactly the same (about 83% of the US and Canada, according to Wikipedia.) We were, actually, taught the /hw/ pronunciation here in Chicago in grammar school, but I’ve never heard it outside that context except for parts of the south. Literally almost nobody speaks like that around here (and most of the US). ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2022, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212/82 "2022-10-12T02:46:47Z")
The reason why Tim Horton’s, er, Tim Hortons does not have an apostrophe is because of the language laws in Canada. Quebec told them that if their name had an apostrophe, it was clearly an English word, so they’d have to have a French version on their signage as well (“de Tim Horton”?) which was absurd, so they just dropped the apostrophe and now it’s not necessarily English so they don’t have to translate it into French. I assume they aren’t the only business that this has happened to, but I wouldn’t be surprised that most of the time the apostrophe is dropped more out of ignorance. I was going to finish by mentioning that Sears originally had an apostrophe, but I figured I should make sure of that before posting it, and it seems that the source that I got that tidbit of knowledge from made it up to make the 1890s setting of their game feel older by supposedly having an “original” spelling of Sears on their catalog. The guy’s name itself was actually Sears. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2022, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212/83 "2022-10-12T02:51:26Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Hmm. I lived in Moscow in 1977, and I don’t recall Russian having any definite articles. I also remember the SSR, as it was then, being referred to as “Ukraina,” which I believe is exactly what Ukrainians call their country. ⁢ My understanding is that the definite article was only used by Russians when speaking English, hence my qualifier. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2022, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212/84 "2022-10-12T03:00:55Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > > [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > > > AIUI some say that we lazy Americans don’t pronounce wh- words right. For instance, white should be pronounced hwite **(so it would be cool hwip).** ⁢ > > What do you mean, “would be”? That’s how it’s pronounced. > > Never understood why Brian Griffin had a problem with it. ⁢ I believe it’s been shown that Stewie does it intentionally. I haven’t watched the show in a long time, but I remember Brian catching him using it for words that don’t start with “wh,” and leaving it out when it doesn’t. In fact, on the TNG episode, Stewie clearly says Whil Wheaton, and Patrick Stewart even calls him out. He even says “wheat” as “weet.” [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/B9rJ2sYaeJ0/hqdefault.jpg "Family Guy - Whil Wheaton") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9rJ2sYaeJ0&t=60) ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2022, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212/85 "2022-10-12T08:51:38Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > My understanding is that the definite article was only used by Russians when speaking English, hence my qualifier. Russians speaking English said it that way, because native English speakers said it that way. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2022, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212/86 "2022-10-12T09:29:11Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > My understanding is that the definite article was only used by Russians when speaking English, hence my qualifier. ⁢ > > Russians speaking English said it that way, because native English speakers said it that way. ⁢ I don’t see any reason to assume that. Why would native English speakers spontaneously put a definite article in front of a proper name? It only makes sense if one knows that “Ukraine” means “borderlands.” No, I very much suspect that the English use reflects the Russian. There are apparently two different prepositions на and в (_na_ and _v_ in Ukrainian). The first is used in front of regions, and is usually translated “in the”, while the other is used in front of countries, and is translated just “in.” ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2022, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212/87 "2022-10-12T10:40:01Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Why would native English speakers spontaneously put a definite article in front of a proper name? Maybe they have spent a lot of time in the Gambia, the Ivory Coast, the Sudan, the Congo, the Central African Republic, and the Midlands? > [@BigT](#): > > No, I very much suspect that the English use reflects the Russian. As opposed to the Ukrainian? Are we to assume most English speakers are fluent in one or both of these languages? Even in the case of these English speakers fluent in Russian, however, > [@BigT](#): > > There are apparently two different prepositions на and в (_na_ and _v_ in Ukrainian). Those are indeed prepositions (“na” + locative means something like “on”; note that Russian and Ukrainian differ somewhat in the use of grammatical cases and prepositions) and have nothing to do with definite articles. @RivkahChaya is correct that Russian has no definite or indefinite articles. ---
**Author:** ![Reeses\_Monkey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reeses_monkey/32/2885_2.png) [@Reeses\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeses_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2022, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212/88 "2022-10-12T20:41:54Z")
Why would I pronounce wh as hw? Why would anybody pronounce it that way? It’s backwards. If you want it said that way, then spell it that way. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2022, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212/89 "2022-10-12T22:20:40Z")
It has been; e.g. (skimming the dictionary) > Hwæt wilt þu þæt ic þe do? > Hwat is þis þe astihȝð alse dai rieme? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-loaf-a-teachable-moment/958212.md?page=4)