# Mr. Moto, are you out... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 19, 2006, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661 "2006-01-19T15:42:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2006, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/61 "2006-01-19T19:17:31Z")
> [@Amazon Floozy Goddess](#): > > This is how wars get started. 😃 I wrote a lesson plan awhile ago on teaching children the slippery slope fallacy; the lesson begins with my proposing to give them cookies and concluding that if I give them cookies, CITIES WILL BURN! I suspect you’re making a very similar error. Wars don’t get started because someone believes another person’s religion is factually incorrect and tells this to their children. Wars get started because people believe that strangers gotta believe the same thing about the cosmos as they believe, and are willing to kill the strangers in order to terrorize them into belief. That’s a big honkin’ difference, and it’s not real fair to **Pochacco** to gloss over it like this. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Hamadryad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6de8d8/32.png) [@Hamadryad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamadryad)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2006, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/62 "2006-01-19T19:18:25Z")
> [@Amazon Floozy Goddess](#): > > From the MPSIMS thread: > > Bolding mine. > > You’ve already taught her the wrong thing by saying this. > > My parents taught me that people all over the world have different religions. They didn’t preach whether they were right or wrong; they just left it at that. I was raised Catholic, but my parents respected me enough to show me the way they believed, but to leave the ultimate decision of my faith up to me. > > I’m part Native and have chosen to follow that path now. You have no place saying that my beliefs are “not true”. How would you know? You’re not omnipotent, and neither am I. I wouldn’t presume to tell you your beliefs weren’t true, just as I wouldn’t presume to tell a Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, etc. > > Varied religions all have their own worth and beauty and are one of the things show just how wonderful humanity can be. To say that someone’s religion is “not true” is squashing that, and it exhibits ignorance. This is how wars get started. I believe everyone has the right to believe what they like, and I shan’t try to stop them. In my opinion, though, believing in magic and fairy tales as ways to guide one’s life is depressingly ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2006, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/63 "2006-01-19T19:27:19Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > Would you tell a Christian father in a similar situation to remind his child that some people think heaven is just a made-up story? Of course you wouldn’t. I wanted to answer this question here, per your wishes. If my child asked me whether or not there was a heaven, I would explain that some people thought there was, and some people thought there wasn’t. I would then tell him or her why I thought there was one. A different emphasis than what I mapped out for you, I know. But we are raising our children within the traditions of our own faith. In either case, I think it an honest approach, and respectful of the child’s beliefs as well. ---
**Author:** ![wayward](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a87d85/32.png) [@wayward](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wayward)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2006, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/64 "2006-01-19T19:28:31Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > **Mr. Moto** , you are a graceless ass. [**Pochacco** has replied to you](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7013563&postcount=51), making it clear what she thinks of your comments. Do you apologize? Hell, no. Instead you graciously inform her: How thoughtful of you, you condescending twit. **Pochacco** is saying that if his daughter asks about heaven, he’ll discuss it. …Which is exactly what **Mr. Moto** suggested, and then he replied confirming he agrees with the way **Pochacco** is handling it. What’s the big deal? I would say this is a completely pointless thread, but it’s at least taught me that atheists can be over-sensitive dicks over their beliefs just like anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2006, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/65 "2006-01-19T19:38:25Z")
> [@wayward](#): > > **Pochacco** is saying that if his daughter asks about heaven, he’ll discuss it. > …Which is exactly what **Mr. Moto** suggested, and then he replied confirming he agrees with the way **Pochacco** is handling it. What’s the big deal? > > I would say this is a completely pointless thread, but it’s at least taught me that atheists can be over-sensitive dicks over their beliefs just like anyone else. The big deal is that **Pochacco** had expressly requested no religious advice, only secular. **Mr. Moto’s** response not only told the OP to bring religion into it, but cast it as being honest – implying that not to mention a religious answer would be dishonest. Had the situation been reversed – had the OP specifically asked only for religiously oriented answers and someone had posted recommending the “Rotting in a box in the ground” approach, then not bothered to apologize when the OP pointed out he was dealing with such things just fine, thank you, and didn’t want to hear any more on the topic – I would find it equally offensive. Look, what’s so hard to understand? “I’m dealing with X and would like help, but please not in Y terms.” “No, no, you have to talk about Y or you’re not being honest.” You don’t think that’s rude? ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2006, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/66 "2006-01-19T19:43:34Z")
> [@Hamadryad](#): > > I believe everyone has the right to believe what they like, and I shan’t try to stop them. In my opinion, though, believing in magic and fairy tales as ways to guide one’s life is depressingly ignorant. And referring to people’s religious beliefs as “magic and fairy tales” is depressingly insensitive. You think those beliefs are crap – fine. But you seem to be making a deliberate effort to offend. That said, I’m OK with parents saying a religion is “not true”. Eventually, their kids will come to understand that some things their parents say are opinions and not proven (or proveable) facts. However, saying the people who believe in a religion are stupid (or “depressingly ignorant” if you prefer) doesn’t seem likely to instill open-mindedness or tolerance in your kids. ---
**Author:** ![Amazon\_Floozy\_Goddess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/779978/32.png) [@Amazon\_Floozy\_Goddess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amazon_Floozy_Goddess)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2006, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/67 "2006-01-19T19:43:45Z")
> [@Hamadryad](#): > > I believe everyone has the right to believe what they like, and I shan’t try to stop them. In my opinion, though, believing in magic and fairy tales as ways to guide one’s life is depressingly ignorant. Native religions have nothing to do with “magic” or “fairy tales”. That’s a misdirected view brought over by oppresive and hateful white settlers. If that’s what you think, then you are the one who’s ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![wayward](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a87d85/32.png) [@wayward](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wayward)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2006, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/68 "2006-01-19T19:51:21Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > The big deal is that **Pochacco** had expressly requested no religious advice, only secular. **Mr. Moto’s** response not only told the OP to bring religion into it, but cast it as being honest – implying that not to mention a religious answer would be dishonest. > > Had the situation been reversed – had the OP specifically asked only for religiously oriented answers and someone had posted recommending the “Rotting in a box in the ground” approach, then not bothered to apologize when the OP pointed out he was dealing with such things just fine, thank you, and didn’t want to hear any more on the topic – I would find it equally offensive. > > Look, what’s so hard to understand? “I’m dealing with X and would like help, but please not in Y terms.” “No, no, you have to talk about Y or you’re not being honest.” You don’t think that’s rude? **Mr. Moto’s** first reply was basically “I know you don’t want to talk about it from a religious point of view, but if your daughter brings it up, you probably should” I’d find it no more or less unreasonable if a Christian had asked the question looking for religious replies and some one had said > [@Hypothetical Atheist](#): > > I understand that you are an Christian. However, your daughter might not necessarily be one, even at her age. Children don’t seem to be “wired” for religion, it seems. > > She may have questions about whether her teacher’s soul lives on, especially if her classmates talk about her just rotting in the ground. > > If she asks you about this, you have to answer her honestly as well, that you believe in a heaven, but other people do not. FTR, I’m agnostic, currently leaning towards atheism. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2006, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/69 "2006-01-19T19:52:29Z")
> [@FilmGeek](#): > > Oh spare me. > > I never said to lie (when it comes to death, what is the truth anyway? I’ve got an open enough mind that if heaven exists, neat. I may not believe, but I’m not arrogant enough to assert that I KNOW THE TRUTH no matter what I believe) to the kid, and I never in any way implied child abuse. Um…let me quote you again: > [@](#): > > I agree with Moto. Not “your teacher is in heaven now” \*\*but when or if the kid says “did teacher go to heaven” with tears in her eyes, afraid it might not be so, I don’t see a problem with saying “yes, I bet she did”. \*\* The same as if she said “is teacher living with santa and the easter bunny now?”. > > **This is about making a little girl not afraid** , not about teaching beliefs, theological or not. Saying “I bet she did” is a lie (particularly for an atheist). The part about anything else being a failure to make the child unafraid implies that someone isn’t doing their job. The word “abuse” may have been a bit strong. Implicit of bad parenting would probably be more accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2006, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/70 "2006-01-19T19:52:38Z")
I was taking great pains not to be rude, and I was showing due deference toward the OP’s philosophical atheism. That does not mean, though, that his daughter won’t come up with questions of a very religious nature, given the upbringing of her classmates. I was just warning that that might happen, and suggesting a strategy toward dealing with it. At no time did I advocate any kind of faith based approach to grief, as it would not be appropriate for this family. And that’s how I interpreted the admonition about religion. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2006, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/71 "2006-01-19T20:02:51Z")
My apologies, then, **Mr. Moto** , that I misread your intention. Though I do think casting your advice in terms of honesty was, shall we say, not the most felicitous of phrasings. Nevertheless, I withdraw the fulmigations and animadversions. I would suggest, though, that your initial comments seemed – to me at least – to assume that **Pochacco** had not already considered and dealt with the issue of religious ideas presented to his daughter by her classmates and the world around her, at least in terms suitable for her age. If I may in my turn leap into the murky waters of assumption, it would seem highly likely to me that most atheist or agnostic parents, given their minority status in our society, would have thought long and hard about how to approach the topic of religion with their children. With that basis, telling someone who has requested only secular advice that s/he nonetheless has to talk about religion seems to me to be inappropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2006, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/72 "2006-01-19T20:03:27Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > Sorry, dude. I formed that misconception based on absolutely no evidence. I’ve been reading “Pocahantas” all this time. Boy, is MY face red!!! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2006, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/73 "2006-01-19T20:03:37Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > The big deal is that **Pochacco** had expressly requested no religious advice, only secular. **Mr. Moto’s** response not only told the OP to bring religion into it, but cast it as being honest – implying that not to mention a religious answer would be dishonest. No, in fact, he didn’t. He simply said that the kid might come home from school with questions about religious concepts like heaven and hell, and that the parent should be prepared to deal honestly with the inquiry. This pit thread is nothing more than a tangible manifestation of one atheist’s inferiority complex. The problem here is that most evangelical atheists are as illogical as their theist counterparts, and are generally unwilling to honestly accept the truth about their atheism, namely that it has the same factual basis as the theist’s belief does: none. There is no more proof to support the statement “There is no god” than there is to support the statement “there is a god”. Atheists will tie themselves into knots rather than admit this absurdly simple fact that every 5 year old knows is true. If they would leave things at “I don’t believe there is a god”, this whole thing would be a non issue. Instead many of them can’t leave well enough alone and instead take a page from their theist counterparts, they feel the need to proselytize. ---
**Author:** ![Hamadryad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6de8d8/32.png) [@Hamadryad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamadryad)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2006, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/74 "2006-01-19T20:05:08Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > And referring to people’s religious beliefs as “magic and fairy tales” is depressingly insensitive. You think those beliefs are crap – fine. But you seem to be making a deliberate effort to offend. > > That said, I’m OK with parents saying a religion is “not true”. Eventually, their kids will come to understand that some things their parents say are opinions and not proven (or proveable) facts. However, saying the people who believe in a religion are stupid (or “depressingly ignorant” if you prefer) doesn’t seem likely to instill open-mindedness or tolerance in your kids. I’m not making a deliberate effort to offend, unless AFG is as well. I’m not 100% on anything, but I’m pretty sure I believe all religions are pure bunk. Obviously, the religious people and I are never going to agree on this one. I am not of the opinion that everyone’s beliefs have to be coddled. If you believe it that strongly, nothing I say should matter - and I’m certainly not out in the street screaming that everyone who’s religious is an idiot. I’m just offering an opinion on here. If you think I’m telling my kids “Anyone who believes in a religion is an idiot,” then you have a depressingly black-and-white view of the world. I know my kids are going to have their own beliefs - daughter wants to go to church with Grandma, and I let her. However, when she asked me about Heaven and the afterlife, I just told her “Nobody knows for sure because no one who’s been dead has been able to come back and tell us.” She’s decided that people get reincarnated for right now, it seems. I have no idea what she’ll decide to believe next week. A few months ago she believed she could control our gerbils with her mind. So. > [@Amazon Floozy Goddess](#): > > Native religions have nothing to do with “magic” or “fairy tales”. That’s a misdirected view brought over by oppresive and hateful white settlers. If that’s what you think, then you are the one who’s ignorant. Tone it down a notch; you’re starting to foam at the mouth. If NATIVE RELIGIONS believe there’s anything but the unknown beyond death, then, in my opinion, it’s still a fairy tale. Honestly I haven’t delved into native religions because I am both not religious AND not in a fervor to learn every aspect of the culture of indigenous North Americans. Pardon my extreme lack of educational breadth. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2006, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/75 "2006-01-19T20:10:18Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Something along the lines of, “A lot of your classmates may believe this way. Mommy and I believe this way, and here’s why.” Completely reasonable. Another SDMB freak-out circle jerk. Congrats, guys. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2006, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/76 "2006-01-19T20:12:11Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > I withdraw the fulmigations :smack: fulminations :smack: I _knew_ something looked wrong when I previewed… :o ---
**Author:** ![Amazon\_Floozy\_Goddess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/779978/32.png) [@Amazon\_Floozy\_Goddess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amazon_Floozy_Goddess)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2006, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/77 "2006-01-19T20:24:46Z")
> [@Hamadryad](#): > > Tone it down a notch; you’re starting to foam at the mouth. If NATIVE RELIGIONS believe there’s anything but the unknown beyond death, then, in my opinion, it’s still a fairy tale. Honestly I haven’t delved into native religions because I am both not religious AND not in a fervor to learn every aspect of the culture of indigenous North Americans. Pardon my extreme lack of educational breadth. I have every right to be pissed when you view the beliefs of my culture as “fairy tales”. You haven’t delved into it? You don’t know anything about it? Then keep your mouth shut about it. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/78 "2006-01-19T20:37:02Z")
> [@](#): > > **Originally Posted by Pochacco, in the other thread** > Would you tell a Christian father in a similar situation to remind his child that some people think heaven is just a made-up story? Of course you wouldn’t FWIW, I would also (and have, when the subject of death has come up) tell my kids that not all people believe in heaven, and I’m not sure there is such a place. We none of us know (although I’m pretty sure not), so where is the harm? Why not let the kid decide her comfort level with it? But then, perhaps not all parents are ok with that. I think there is definetly a time to debate and explore theology and logic and metaphysics etc, but maybe not at age 5. Just as there may be no reason to push angels and eternal happiness onto kids, there may be no reason to leave them with stark realism and decomposing bodies as comfort. Surely there is a middle ground somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/79 "2006-01-19T20:37:19Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Any atheist who did this would be copping out like six ways from Sunday. You make it sound as if the truth is some sort of child abuse. They’re not made out of bone china fercrissakes. Tell the kid no, she’s dead now but you can always remember how much you liked her and how she helped you to learn to read or whatever. This fear of upsetting children…I just dont get it. I don’t get why people pretend like “telling the truth” is some sort of great moral imperative in a situation like this (again, like with the people who act like letting your kids write letters to Santa Claus is evil.) Children do not know the whole truth. Sometimes, they are given accounts of reality that grossly distort it or omit major things. When you give your kid the birds and the bees account, you don’t tell it how much Mommy loves her nipple clamps. If you’re an atheist, then obviously there is less reason to push your views than if you’re Christian; a Christian parent believes their kid’s eternal salvation rests upon belief. For an atheist, no such excuse exists. Telling your child that there’s no God - if that’s what you believe - is at best unnecessary; there is no reason not to let your child make up their own mind - it’s not like you or I actually _know_ the answer to any cosmic question. That’s the real problem with “telling it like it is” - it’s arrogant to pretend that you have anything more than the rest of us; these things are all matters of opinion when it’s all said and done. ---
**Author:** ![Hamadryad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6de8d8/32.png) [@Hamadryad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamadryad)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2006, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/80 "2006-01-19T20:43:55Z")
> [@Amazon Floozy Goddess](#): > > I have every right to be pissed when you view the beliefs of my culture as “fairy tales”. You haven’t delved into it? You don’t know anything about it? Then keep your mouth shut about it. You know, I’m not even a strongly atheistic person. I don’t know WHAT the hell is going on in the great wide open. Most of the time, logically, I believe religion was a way for folks to explain what happened in the world around them when they weren’t yet scientifically advanced enough to explain it with facts … but shouldn’t be necessary any more since we are able to explain more every year about how and why things function as they do. I understand that a great number of people feel the need to believe in or worship some sort of supernatural being to fill something in themselves. I’m glad a lot of them have chosen relatively benign beings to believe in. However, another’s comfort in them does not require me to respect those ideas. It doesn’t matter what religion it is. I think it’s bullshit. Now, on the street or in a casual setting or in a more civilized debate thread, I would be FAR less direct in my classification of your Firmly Held Religious Beliefs as a lot of mythological brain candy. However, I don’t feel that this thread or anyone’s post in it is worth going to the effort of being tactful. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661.md?page=5)