# Mr. Moto, are you out... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 19, 2006, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661 "2006-01-19T15:42:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/101 "2006-01-20T02:10:16Z")
Incidentally, I am personally an agnostic weak atheist. I have no belief in gods but I don’t believe it’s possible to know they don’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Amazon\_Floozy\_Goddess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/779978/32.png) [@Amazon\_Floozy\_Goddess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amazon_Floozy_Goddess)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/102 "2006-01-20T02:23:27Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Gee, I wonder why nobody thinks you’re capable of any type of deep thought. I wonder why people believe that nuances are beyond your ken, and thus they try to couch things in simple terms that you’ll understand. I wonder… > :rolleyes: I wonder… What the fuck are you talking about? I haven’t seen anyone else besides you take a cheap shot like this. And if you have such a blatantly obvious disregard for me, you’ve never said shit to me about it. **Hamadryad** at least tactfully clarified her view in her last response post. But you? You’re just being an asshole. Got nothing to actually contribute to this besides below-the-belt punches? And you’re saying _I’m_ not capable of deep thought. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/103 "2006-01-20T02:38:59Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#): > > I think **Mr. Moto** should reconsider the “hard wiring” question in general and definitely leave it out of the discusiion in the original thread. However, his points about discussing with a confused and distraught child about the different things she is hearing from different people is a good point. After more than 5,000 years of gods, goddess, creation myths, and religious figures, I think you are on safe ground asserting that humans tend to form supernatural beliefs. Notwithstanding the accuracy of those beliefs, I think Moto’s correct about humans having some behaviours flashed to eprom, if not strictly hard wired. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/104 "2006-01-20T02:41:15Z")
> [@Hamadryad](#): > > I have no idea what she’ll decide to believe next week. A few months ago she believed she could control our gerbils with her mind. Your daughter sounds pretty cool, **Hama**. **Amazon Floozy Goddess** , switch to decaf. No one is attacking your heritage. Jesus Christ. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/105 "2006-01-20T03:14:03Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > You and Merriam-Webster would be wrong on both counts. That is not how those terms are defined in formal philosphy. Atheism simply means the absence of belief. Agnosticism is the belief that it is _impossible to KNOW_ whether God exists. It is not a theistic position _per se_. Dictionary definitions are based on how terms are commonly used. _Excuse me_ for using a word as it is _commonly used_ and as it is defined in the _dictionary_, as opposed to using it as a technical term in formal philosophy. :rolleyes: Seriously, just because a common English word may also have a technical meaning in a particular field, it’s not reasonable to expect everyone to use it _only_ in that precise technical sense as opposed to the standard usage. “Atheist” is _not_ purely a technical term. > [@](#): > > Atheism is not a belief and is not answer to the question “is there a God.” You’re also using a piss poor definition of “religion.” Something can be _religious_ without being a religion. I would think that by _most_ common definitions of “religious”, whether or not God exists is a religious question. But anyway, you’re just attacking semantics here. If you actually read everything I wrote, my meaning should have been perfectly obvious. Instead, you’re attacking what _you_ think the words I said _should_ have meant. > [@](#): > > That’s really here nor there. It’s simply _inaccurate_, and frankly, kind of insulting. It’s like saying a lack of belief in magic is a “magical belief.” That analogy would only hold if I were talking about “lack of belief in religion.” And if “magical beliefs” actually were a term used to refer to a set of beliefs. If people talked about one’s “magical beliefs”, meaning beliefs about questions like “whether a rabbit can be pulled from a hat”, then it would make sense to call the belief that rabbits _can’t_ be pulled from hats a “magical belief”. But no one talks like that, so the analogy isn’t applicable. As to whether it’s offensive, I think the fact that you consider “religious” to be an insult is kind of insulting to those who are religious. ---
**Author:** ![Amazon\_Floozy\_Goddess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/779978/32.png) [@Amazon\_Floozy\_Goddess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amazon_Floozy_Goddess)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/106 "2006-01-20T04:11:05Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **Amazon Floozy Goddess** , switch to decaf. No one is attacking your heritage. > > Jesus Christ. When I have my spiritual beliefs likened to fairy tales, like they have no significance, that sure seems like an attack to me. I have a right to take offense at that. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/107 "2006-01-20T04:24:34Z")
> [@Amazon Floozy Goddess](#): > > When I have my spiritual beliefs likened to fairy tales, like they have no significance, that sure seems like an attack to me. I have a right to take offense at that. I personally have the opinion that ALL supernatural beliefs are nonsense. I have no control over that opinion. I can’t force myself to believe anything else. That doesn’t mean that I’m singling out one belief more than any other or that I can’t respect people who do hold those beliefs. I think you’re being too thin-skinned about this. Everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want and we are obliged to respect that right. But that doesn’t mean we have to respect the beliefs themselves. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/108 "2006-01-20T04:35:39Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Something can be _religious_ without being a religion. I would think that by _most_ common definitions of “religious”, whether or not God exists is a religious question. There are no religious questions unless god (or some form of religion) is accepted as a given. That’s the problem with characterizing atheists as holding religious beliefs. It strikes me as being similar to classifying “Is the world real, or am I imagining it?” as a physics question. (A weak analogy, but the best I could come up with. Can anybody help me out with a better one?) > [@Amazon Floozy Goddess](#): > > When I have my spiritual beliefs likened to fairy tales, like they have no significance, that sure seems like an attack to me. I have a right to take offense at that. Who said that fairy tales have no significance? Sounds like you might have some personal baggage you’re bringing into this. I consider religious beliefs, myths, fables, and fairy tales to be synonyms. So what? I recognize that your beliefs have meaning to you, and that is a strength of yours, not a weakness. While I consider the details of your belief to be mythological, I would characterize your beliefs as your method for tapping into your own inner strength, much like meditation for a Buddhist. Is that really an attack on your beliefs? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/109 "2006-01-20T05:14:38Z")
> [@Amazon Floozy Goddess](#): > > When I have my spiritual beliefs likened to fairy tales, like they have no significance, that sure seems like an attack to me. I have a right to take offense at that. But it’s NOT an attack at you. Some people simply do believe that ALL religion is nonsense. It’s not about “the white settlers attacking Natives”, it’s just how they feel about religion in general. You have a right to feel offended, I suppose. And I have the right to feel that you’re overreacting. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/110 "2006-01-20T06:01:51Z")
> [@Amazon Floozy Goddess](#): > > What the fuck are you talking about? I haven’t seen anyone else besides you take a cheap shot like this. And if you have such a blatantly obvious disregard for me, you’ve never said shit to me about it. **Hamadryad** at least tactfully clarified her view in her last response post. But you? You’re just being an asshole. Got nothing to actually contribute to this besides below-the-belt punches? And you’re saying _I’m_ not capable of deep thought. :rolleyes: A cheap shot is too good for the likes of you. Don’t come in here with your hate speech and then act offended when someone calls you on it. The post you made that I quoted reveals quite clearly what gutter your mind is posting from, don’t expect me to give your racist views a free pass. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/111 "2006-01-20T08:07:15Z")
> [@Amazon Floozy Goddess](#): > > From the MPSIMS thread: > > Bolding mine. > > You’ve already taught her the wrong thing by saying this. > > My parents taught me that people all over the world have different religions. They didn’t preach whether they were right or wrong; they just left it at that. I was raised Catholic, but my parents respected me enough to show me the way they believed, but to leave the ultimate decision of my faith up to me. > > I’m part Native and have chosen to follow that path now. **You have no place saying that my beliefs are “not true”**. How would you know? You’re not omnipotent, and neither am I. I wouldn’t presume to tell you your beliefs weren’t true, just as I wouldn’t presume to tell a Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, etc. > > Varied religions all have their own worth and beauty and are one of the things show just how wonderful humanity can be. To say that someone’s religion is “not true” is squashing that, and it exhibits ignorance. This is how wars get started. The bolding is mine. That statement makes no sense at all. If I believe Christianity is true (there is no salvation other than through Christ) then by definition I must believe that all other religions are false. If I’m an atheist (which I am) then I believe that _all_ religions are false. Saying that “varied religions all have their own worth and beauty” is to demote faith into just another cultural artifact, something quaint and colorful, but without real meaning. If all religions are true then none are true. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/112 "2006-01-20T09:20:31Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Saying that “varied religions all have their own worth and beauty” is to demote faith into just another cultural artifact, something quaint and colorful, but without real meaning. I’d object to the use of the word “real”, and offer up “objective” or “universal” as alternatives. It doesn’t matter what the specifics of your beliefs are, but if you have some way of drawing comfort in the bad times, then your beliefs have real meaning and value, regardless of whether or not the particulars are accurate. Two people with mutually exclusive belief systems can both draw comfort from their beliefs, regardless if one or both of their belief systems end up being factually incorrect. Basically, everyone has the capacity to make up whatever they want to provide this comfort. As an atheist, imagining eternal bliss isn’t how I would draw comfort when faced with the loss of a loved one. But then again, if I wanted to, I could imagine that anyway: See, during the last moment of life, in the instant of death, the brain ceases the ability to process time, which translates into a near infinite dilation of the sense of time. Also, during this moment of death, endorphins (or whatever) in the brain get released which envelope the dying brain in joyous state of bliss, and due to the time distortion of their senses this momentary final experience is subjectively indistinguishable from an eternity in heaven. I don’t really believe this, but I don’t fully disbelieve this either. When confronted by loss, I could certainly find comfort in it. What harm if it’s factually incorrect? Hell, I could determine it to be false and _still_ draw comfort from it. In the end, all questions of the unknown are answered by wishful thinking anyway. Trying to figure out which religion is objectively true seems to miss the point entirely. Much like being offended that somebody else considers your beliefs to be a load of hogwash is missing the point. I am an atheist because I don’t credit any aspect of the human condition to any cause other than being human. We all have whatever (potential) strength we have just by virtue of being who we are. To offload the good things into the realm of god is to cheapen the human race, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/113 "2006-01-20T10:34:33Z")
AFG, a quick google came up with some basic starting points of native American spiritual beliefs: [http://www.nhc.rtp.nc.us:8080/tserve/eighteen/ekeyinfo/natrel.htm](http://www.nhc.rtp.nc.us:8080/tserve/eighteen/ekeyinfo/natrel.htm) > [@](#): > > Teaching about Native American religion is a challenging task to tackle with students at any level, if only because the Indian systems of belief and ritual were as legion as the tribes inhabiting North America. So let’s begin by trimming down that bewildering variety to manageable proportions with three glittering generalizations (which might, with luck, prove more useful than misleading). > > First, at the time of European contact, all but the simplest indigenous cultures in North America had developed coherent religious systems that included cosmologies– **creation myths** , transmitted orally from one generation to the next, which purported to explain how those societies had come into being. > > Second, most native peoples worshiped an all-powerful,\*\* all-knowing Creator or “Master Spirit”\*\* (a being that assumed a variety of forms and both genders). They also venerated or placated a host of lesser supernatural entities, \*\*including an evil god who dealt out disaster, suffering, and death. \*\* > > **Third and finally, the members of most tribes believed in the immortality of the human soul and an afterlife,** the main feature of which was the abundance of every good thing that made earthly life secure and pleasant. (bolding mine) Can you see that to an atheist or an agnostic, this is no different from mainstream christianity or any other world religion? Creation myths, spirits, and souls. It’s all the same thing. They’re made up by man to explain, control, and comfort. Every religion’s got ‘em, and atheists ain’t buyin’ it. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/114 "2006-01-20T11:13:33Z")
Part of my OP here (unexpressed) was to pit the introduction of religion gratuitously and offensively into a thread that had little to do with religion but, instead, specifically and politely requested that religious issues be excluded from any responses: _“Any suggestions for how to talk to our daughter about [her teacher’s brutal murder]? ……my daughter is imaginative and sensitive and we’re anticipating that she’ll find it unsettling. BTW, we’re atheists, so if you have any advice please keep it secular in nature.”_ Mr. Moto chose to disregard that polite request and responded (in its entirety) with this: \*“I understand that you are an atheist. However, your daughter might not necessarily be one, even at her age. Children don’t seem to be “wired” for atheism, it seems. She may have questions about where her teacher “went”, especially if her classmates talk about heaven or an afterlife. If she asks you about this, you have to answer her honestly as well, that you do not believe in a heaven, but other people do.”\* So let me speculate that if the OP was from a devout Christian, it might easily have read like this: _“Any suggestions for how to talk to our daughter about [her teacher’s brutal murder]? ……my daughter is imaginative and sensitive and we’re anticipating that she’ll find it unsettling. BTW, we’re deeply religious Christians, so if you have any advice please place it within that context?"_ Now if Mr. Moto had responded to that polite request by writing \*“I understand that you are a Christian believer. However, your daughter might not necessarily be one, even at her age. Children don’t seem to be “wired” for Christianity, it seems. She may have questions about where her teacher “went”, especially if her classmates talk about their doubts about heaven or an afterlife, or if they come from multi-cultural homes, or have vivid imaginations as many kindergartners do. If she asks you about this, you have to answer her honestly as well, that you believe in a heaven, but other people don’t.”\*, I think his defenders, and Christians generally would have a real problem with that, and rightly so. Can’t you see the blatant hypocrisy here? If not, you’re ignoring the beam in your own eye while complaining bitterly about the mote in your atheistic brother’s eye. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/115 "2006-01-20T12:44:45Z")
Don’t assume, **PRR**. I have no problem with the second (fictional) scenario. My thoughts are that the girl will have questions. Period. Because she WILL hear things said. The parents can take as far as they wish, or they can choose to leave it all for a future time. But for you to assume that my acceptance of that part of **Mr Moto** ’s post is somehow some sort of “blatant hypocrisy” because of your own preconcieved notions of religious people is as distasteful as some ultra fundie using the opportunity to attempt to convert the child aginst the parent’s wishes. Think before you post. Not everyone fits into your predjudice. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/116 "2006-01-20T13:07:51Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#): > > Don’t assume, **PRR**. I have no problem with the second (fictional) scenario. My thoughts are that the girl will have questions. Period. Because she WILL hear things said. The parents can take as far as they wish, or they can choose to leave it all for a future time. But for you to assume that my acceptance of that part of **Mr Moto** ’s post is somehow some sort of “blatant hypocrisy” because of your own preconcieved notions of religious people is as distasteful as some ultra fundie using the opportunity to attempt to convert the child aginst the parent’s wishes. > > Think before you post. Not everyone fits into your predjudice. Let’s see if all your co-religionists share your admirable tolerance for introducing atheism in a thread that explicitly asks for a Christian perspective. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/117 "2006-01-20T13:13:16Z")
Just like my SDMB atheist comment here earlier, here you will find more thinking. In other venues, you would likely be right. A lot of nonthinking of beliefes goes on out in the real world, religious or not. And just for fun, a poll! Who’s the athiest atheist? ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/118 "2006-01-20T13:19:34Z")
Just to go on record, tho: Some few of the religious Dopers are as embarassing to critical thinking religionists as is Creationism. But, for the most part, I’ve seen some very rational debate about non rational topics in my time here. Of course, the crazy loud mouths stand out, as always. ---
**Author:** ![Amazon\_Floozy\_Goddess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/779978/32.png) [@Amazon\_Floozy\_Goddess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amazon_Floozy_Goddess)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/119 "2006-01-20T14:20:18Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > A cheap shot is too good for the likes of you. Don’t come in here with your hate speech and then act offended when someone calls you on it. The post you made that I quoted reveals quite clearly what gutter your mind is posting from, don’t expect me to give your racist views a free pass. :mad: Racist views? Hardly. It WAS hateful white settlers who told the Native peoples that their beliefs were wrong and bad. How the fuck is stating that racist? It’s history, you idiot. Look it up. Or would you rather pretend it never happened like some people try to deny the Holocaust? ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661/120 "2006-01-20T14:23:04Z")
Some soothing music surely would help. Any suggestions? Anyone? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-moto-are-you-out/340661.md?page=7)