# Mr. Obama? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 27, 2009, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-obama/483167 "2009-01-27T01:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-obama/483167/21 "2009-01-27T14:11:28Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > If we’re going this route, I support calling current Presidents “Mr. Lastname”\* because President is a job description, not a feudal title: An election doesn’t change _your_ social status, it merely places you in an _office_ that is accorded respect by others based on established traditions. The respect is part of the office, just like the White House and the really snazzy limos, and is ultimately being accorded to the people of the United States of America, who chose that President to represent them and their interests on an international stage. > > Former presidents will be called “President Lastname” because the English language is a _language_, not a board game, and it abides by no fixed rules. > > \*(Obviously selected from “Mr./Mrs./Ms.” according to the gender and preference of the person in the office.) It’s something that makes me quite proud of our Founding Fathers - Mr. Adams (see what I did there?) didn’t get his “His High Mightiness”. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-obama/483167/22 "2009-01-27T14:18:23Z")
Because of his Kenyan background he should obviously be referred to as Bwana Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-obama/483167/23 "2009-01-27T14:30:26Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > An election doesn’t change _your_ social status, it merely places you in an _office_ that is accorded respect by others based on established traditions. Didn’t we have a debate about this some weeks ago? Actually, winning a major election (e.g., governor, president, senator, etc.) or being appointed to a high position (e.g., judge, cabinet secretary, etc.) permanently changes how you are formally addressed: you’d be known as “The Honorable (insert name)” for purposes of introduction. For example, if you write a letter to Jimmy Carter, you’d write something like: > [@](#): > > The Honorable Jimmy Carter > 123 Peachtree Lane > Atlanta, GA > > Dear Mr. Carter: As opposed to us schlubs, who you’d write to: > [@](#): > > Mr. Ravenman > General Delivery > Straight Dope Message Board, IL > > Dear Mr. Ravenman: ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-obama/483167/24 "2009-01-27T14:31:53Z")
The NY Times refers to everyone as Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms. They only started using “Ms” when Geraldine Ferraro was running for Vice-President. As Gloria Steinem quipped “I’ll no longer be referred to as Miss Steinem of Ms Magazine.” It’s a little jarring to read about the execution of “Mr. Bundy.” ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-obama/483167/25 "2009-01-27T15:41:39Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > Actually, I never noticed what they called the ex-president. I think I only noticed tonight because it seemed like Reid said it so often. Plus, I pay more attention to Obama than I did to Bush. Yeah, he certainly does merit increased vigilance. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-obama/483167/26 "2009-01-27T15:59:08Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > The NY Times refers to everyone as Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms. They only started using “Ms” when Geraldine Ferraro was running for Vice-President. As Gloria Steinem quipped “I’ll no longer be referred to as Miss Steinem of Ms Magazine.” > > It’s a little jarring to read about the execution of “Mr. Bundy.” Well, they certainly didn’t execute Miss Bundy. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-obama/483167/27 "2009-01-27T17:11:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Um… cite? > > I’m pretty old myself. I recall Judith Martin had a theatre and film review column, and before that was a White House reporter; I don’t recall her ever doing a regular humor column. > > But I may well have missed it… educate me. I have in my humor collection a long-forgotten book of hers from 1972, called _The Name on the White House Floor and other anxieties of our times_. The cover calls her “the Washington Post columnist who makes the whole town laugh - except the President.” The jacket copy says she “writes a weekly syndicated column for the Washington Post” and the book is a collection of those columns starting from 1965. I consider it a humor column in much the same way that Art Buchwald was writing his humor column for them at the same time. The format of the book is identical to the collections of Buchwald’s columns that he put out on a more regular basis. (But Martin’s is from from a different publisher who was obviously trying to ride the coattails of Buchwald’s popularity then.) I don’t know what the formal definition of a humor columnist might be, but she fits mine. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-obama/483167/28 "2009-01-27T17:16:45Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > Chip Reid, chief white house correspondent for cbs, said “Mr. Obama” four or five times tonight on the news. > Is that proper? It is never improper to refer to or address an adult male American as “Mr. \_\_\_\_,” regardless of his or her job or qualifications. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-obama/483167/29 "2009-01-27T20:59:13Z")
**Ravenman** : I have never once seen Mr. Carter referred to as ‘The Honorable’ and I would like a cite to someone that establishes it’s actually done. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-obama/483167/30 "2009-01-27T21:18:55Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > **Ravenman** : I have never once seen Mr. Carter referred to as ‘The Honorable’ and I would like a cite to someone that establishes it’s actually done. It should appear in any table listing forms of address. Here are a few: [http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001618.html](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001618.html) [http://www.cftech.com/BrainBank/OTHERREFERENCE/FORMSOFADDRESS/SpkWritFrmsAddr.html](http://www.cftech.com/BrainBank/OTHERREFERENCE/FORMSOFADDRESS/SpkWritFrmsAddr.html) [http://www.umw.edu/policies/style\_guide/protocol\_\_forms\_address/default.php](http://www.umw.edu/policies/style_guide/protocol__forms_address/default.php) And from “Protocol, 25th Anniversary Edition: The Complete Handbook of Diplomatic, Official and Social Usage,” page 33. [Link.](http://www.usaprotocol.com/) > [@](#): > > The Honorable is the preferred title used in address most high-ranking American officials in office **or retired.** The specific form of letters and introductions of former presidents and vice presidents appears on page 52, and is identical to the links above. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-obama/483167/31 "2009-01-27T21:24:51Z")
Missed edit window: > **[We apologize for the inconvenience... - United States Department of State](https://www.state.gov/404)** > > The page you’re looking for may have gone offline or does not exist. Please use our search, browse further via our navigation, or return to the home page. You may also visit our Archive page for more information. Still can’t find it? Send us a... Protocol FAQ from the US State Department. Q: Does a person retain the honorific title “The Honorable” after leaving the position for which they hold it? A: Yes, a person who has been in a position that entitled them to “The Honorable” continues to retain that honorific title even after he or she leaves that position. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-obama/483167/32 "2009-01-27T21:41:57Z")
Clearly, the protocol promulgated by the State Department is not the operative norm here. Nor should it be. The State Department creates such protocol for state occasions to be followed by people participating in such occasions (most commonly employees of the State Department). It has nothing to do with how a news reporter should address or refer to a person. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-obama/483167/33 "2009-01-27T21:57:07Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Clearly, the protocol promulgated by the State Department is not the operative norm here. Nor should it be. The State Department creates such protocol for state occasions to be followed by people participating in such occasions (most commonly employees of the State Department). It has nothing to do with how a news reporter should address or refer to a person. I was responding to **Derlith’s** point, which, if I understand it correctly, was that high office doesn’t change how people are supposed to address you. His statement went far beyond the question of how journalists are supposed to address people, and it is in error. Of course journalistic standards vary. I am not disputing that, and that question has been adequately answered. But there is no variation in terms of introductions or addressing a letter: every source on forms of address out there will back me up here. Go look in the back of your dictionary, which I presume isn’t only for use by State Department personnel. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-obama/483167/34 "2009-01-27T22:52:31Z")
i believe there may be a bit of a “back door” so to speak for those who die in office. they did not leave the office of president voluntarily or transfer power to the president-elect. they may get to hold onto the president title. all others are former or past presidents, and can go by mr. or whatever retired rank they had. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-obama/483167/35 "2009-01-27T22:58:01Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > I have never once seen Mr. Carter referred to as ‘The Honorable’ and I would like a cite to someone that establishes it’s actually done. It’s not correct as a way to refer to him in the third person: you wouldn’t say “The Honorable Jimmy Carter built this house with a Habitat for Humanity group.” It’s correct as a form of address when writing to him, though. [This letter](http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/blogs/thelede/posts/CarterCenter.pdf) to Carter, written in 2007, shows an example of its use. > [@Derleth](#): > > Former presidents will be called “President Lastname” because the English language is a language, not a board game, and it abides by no fixed rules. If there are no rules, then what are we arguing about? Of course there are rules: you just have a different opinion from me (and from Miss Manners) about whether a particular rule has changed. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-obama/483167/36 "2009-01-27T23:02:09Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Protocol FAQ from the US State Department. > > Q: Does a person retain the honorific title “The Honorable” after leaving the position for which they hold it? > > A: Yes, a person who has been in a position that entitled them to “The Honorable” continues to retain that honorific title even after he or she leaves that position. Is there any exceptions? What if a person served in a state legislature and murdered 65 women and children while operating a slavery ring in the state capital, then was impeached, convicted, and sentenced to death? Would the warden have to refer to him as “The Honorable Inmate X” while reading the death sentence? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-obama/483167/37 "2009-01-28T00:25:51Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > What if a person served in a state legislature and murdered 65 women and children while operating a slavery ring in the state capital, then was impeached, convicted, and sentenced to death? > > Would the warden have to refer to him as “The Honorable Inmate X” while reading the death sentence? Once again, the honorific “The Honorable” is correctly used only in formal address/introduction, not in every single form of reference or address. Death warrants ([example](http://www.johnnyrobinson.us/death_warrant.htm)) use the inmate’s full name with no honorific, so there would be no question of including “The Honorable” in a death warrant for an ex-government official. On the other hand, if you send mail to an ex-government official who’s incarcerated, you do use “The Honorable” in addressing the letter, no matter how dishonorable the official in question has been legally proved to be. Miss Manners had a wonderful column (can’t find it online, sorry) on this very question, where she pointed out the delicious irony of writing, say, “The Honorable Buddy Bedfellow” above the address “State Penitentiary”. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-obama/483167/38 "2009-01-28T01:12:31Z")
And yet, a letter addressed to Mr. Buddy Bedfellow or Buddy Bedfellow or Bedfellow would get there just as well. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-obama/483167/39 "2009-01-28T01:14:55Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > And yet, a letter addressed to Mr. Buddy Bedfellow or Buddy Bedfellow or Bedfellow would get there just as well. Etiquette is about what you should do, not what you have to do. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-obama/483167/40 "2009-01-28T02:25:14Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > And yet, a letter addressed to Mr. Buddy Bedfellow or Buddy Bedfellow or Bedfellow would get there just as well. Sure, but that’s beside the point. Conventional forms of address in correspondence serve a purpose beyond simply identifying the recipient. The convention of using “The Honorable” when addressing former elected officials is intended not as an expression of your personal admiration of them as individuals, but as a formal acknowledgement of respect for the office of public servant. As **Derleth** noted, this is ultimately an expression of respect for our nation as a whole, and as such I think it’s meaningful and valuable, even if I personally would be more comfortable addressing Mr. Bedfellow as “Hey Asshole”. For example, I am not a big fan of our most recent president, and don’t consider him a model of integrity. But if for any reason I were impelled to write him a letter, I would grit my teeth and put “The Honorable George W. Bush” on the envelope. Because that’s what’s correct. IMHO, violating a recognized and accepted convention of etiquette (like not using “The Honorable” in addressing ex-politicians) to show my disdain for the arbitrariness of etiquette conventions wouldn’t make me look enlightened or independent. It would just seem jerkish and petty of me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-obama/483167.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mr-obama/483167.md?page=3)