# Mrs. Gotbaum and the UnKindness of Strangers (a Toulouse Lautrec pitting) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 11, 2007, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mrs-gotbaum-and-the-unkindness-of-strangers-a-toulouse-lautrec-pitting/422294 "2007-10-11T01:34:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mrs-gotbaum-and-the-unkindness-of-strangers-a-toulouse-lautrec-pitting/422294/1 "2007-10-11T01:34:39Z")
_Toulouse Lautrec Pitting_ = short and lame For some reason [this article](http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/10/airport.death/) from [CNN.com](http://CNN.com) just really rubbed me rawer than handcuffs: > [@](#): > > Husband says kindness might have saved wife at airport > > excerpt: “If the airline or the police authorities had treated Carol with some modicum of sensitivity and grace, or one single person at that airport had put an arm around her shoulder, sat her down and given her some protection, she might still be with us today,” Noah Gotbaum said at her funeral Sunday in New York. The above is apparently from her husband’s _eulogy_ for her at that. This is the [YouTube](http://youtube.com/watch?v=S6R4W683btA) of the airport security video. Dude- I’m sorry for your loss, I really am, but does it look like your wife was being _kind_ to the airport personnel? People are stopping dead still in the middle of an airport to watch and listen to her, obviously hesitant to go near her. Now, I understand she had issues, but the typical procedure for such moments in the handbooks of most law enforcement personnel, even the rent-a-cops the airport seems to use, is probably not “put your arm around her shoulder and act warm and fuzzy”, and to the unarmed with no authority in the airport it would be even less feasible to do so. (I consider myself a compassionate person, but I wouldn’t have gone anywhere _near_ the crazy woman.) Your wife was probably late to the Dry Gulch Express because she was getting drunk in a bar, which is why they probably thought they had an out-of-control drunk on their hands, and that’s why they didn’t respond by giving her inner child a tea party. It just irks me: I know there’s going to be a major lawsuit here. No idea how culpable Phoenix AP authorities are for her death, but I’m pretty sure that Ms. Gotbaum was at least up in there somewhere in terms of responsibility and ultimately her death was due to her alcoholism, which sucks and is bad and you don’t deserve to die for but she did. Don’t try to make the consequences of her going apeshit in an airport the result of strangers in a famously paranoid industry not treating a psycho bitch with kid gloves and lullabyes (especially when even if they’d been inclined to put an arm around her shoulder they’d have likely drawn back a nub and been sued for sexual harassment). ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mrs-gotbaum-and-the-unkindness-of-strangers-a-toulouse-lautrec-pitting/422294/2 "2007-10-11T01:47:12Z")
So a drunk woman missed her flight, got pissed that she couldn’t get on the next, got into a screaming hissy fit, got arrested for it (and they might well have let her go w/o charges after she sobered up, who knows), then strangled her own carcass while trying to escape from her restraints. If there’s a lawyer in the country who can win a lawsuit with that, I want to hire him. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mrs-gotbaum-and-the-unkindness-of-strangers-a-toulouse-lautrec-pitting/422294/3 "2007-10-11T01:47:52Z")
This is the first I’ve read about the story. Quoted from the linked article, > [@](#): > > Authorities believe she strangled herself as she tried to maneuver out of handcuffs secured behind her back and attached to a bench in the holding cell. What the fuck? I can’t even visualize this. But what a way to leave this mortal coil. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mrs-gotbaum-and-the-unkindness-of-strangers-a-toulouse-lautrec-pitting/422294/4 "2007-10-11T01:50:08Z")
Even though I expect this to be a slam-dunk negligent death suit, should it ever go to court, that doesn’t mean that I disagree that she wasn’t the largest single factor in her death. It’s one thing to suggest that the rent-a-cops screwed up in their care of their prisoner. It’s altogether another to suggest that she wasn’t indulging in behavior that made it necessary that she needed to be restrained. The case is good enough as it is, Mr. Gotbaum. There’s no need to start trying to whitewash the actions of your wife to make the case go through. And you do yourself and your children no good when you refuse to acknowledge that your wife was the principle cause of her own demise. **smiling bandit** , I don’t disagree that she needed to be arrested. Where I think the negligence comes in is with the fact that it’s considered the arresting authority’s responsibility to keep a prisoner from doing harm to him or herself. So, I really do think that the case law history is such that this is going to be a slam-dunk case. Whether it should be or not is debatable, I don’t think that the current state of case law is debatable, though. ETA: **marshmallow** , here’s a [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=438588) on the topic when the story first broke. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mrs-gotbaum-and-the-unkindness-of-strangers-a-toulouse-lautrec-pitting/422294/5 "2007-10-11T19:16:43Z")
The Arizona police [were not amused](http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/1011airportdeath1011.html) by the remarks either (which also included remarks by the family rabbi who defended her travelling alone). > [@](#): > > We respect the Gotbaum family’s right to ask for answers and express their grief," said Sgt. Andy Hill, who called Gotbaum’s death “a tragic incident which saddened us all.” > > The facts will come out in the investigation, he added. > > “The surveillance video revealed the unsuccessful attempts by witnesses and officers to calm Ms. Gotbaum. The life-saving efforts of the police officers involved clearly demonstrated their concern for Ms. Gotbaum.” While I think “life-saving efforts” might be a bit of a stretch, I can see a counter-suit for libel if the Gotbaum family persists in trying to make Ms. Gotbaum a total victim. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mrs-gotbaum-and-the-unkindness-of-strangers-a-toulouse-lautrec-pitting/422294/6 "2007-10-11T19:31:45Z")
Sorry, but where the hell was he? How many people wouldn’t accompany their spouse to rehab? I do think there is something to be said for intervening when someone is obviously distraught, but I don’t think people at an _airport_ can be criticized for being somewhat hesitant. You can’t joke about afreak out, let alopne help someone who’s having one, if you want to get on your flight. Has a definite cause of death been determined yet? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mrs-gotbaum-and-the-unkindness-of-strangers-a-toulouse-lautrec-pitting/422294/7 "2007-10-11T19:47:13Z")
[QUOTE=Cat Fight] Sorry, but where the hell was he? How many people wouldn’t accompany their spouse to rehab? [/QUOTE] Per the family’s rabbi > [@](#): > > Carol was traveling alone because she wanted her husband, Noah, to look after their children, said Levine, senior rabbi at Congregation Rodeph Sholom, the synagogue where Gotbaum’s memorial service was held. > > “She was fiercely independent and private and believed strongly, as did the rest of the family, that she could do this on her own, that she wanted to do this on her own,” Levine said. “So let us go forth and end the judgments.” (That’s the judgments against the family, obviously, not against the airport security.) ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mrs-gotbaum-and-the-unkindness-of-strangers-a-toulouse-lautrec-pitting/422294/8 "2007-10-11T19:53:23Z")
[QUOTE=Cat Fight] Sorry, but where the hell was he? How many people wouldn’t accompany their spouse to rehab? [/QUOTE] They have three children, ages 7, 5, & 3. He stayed with them in NYC. That strikes me as totally appropriate - he shouldn’t have to babysit her through a couple of connecting flights. And while I don’t agree in the slightest with what he said, I’ve gotta give a grieving spouse 30 days to say whatever lunatic stuff he wants to. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mrs-gotbaum-and-the-unkindness-of-strangers-a-toulouse-lautrec-pitting/422294/9 "2007-10-11T20:05:06Z")
[QUOTE=muldoonthief] They have three children, ages 7, 5, & 3. He stayed with them in NYC. That strikes me as totally appropriate - he shouldn’t have to babysit her through a couple of connecting flights. [/QUOTE] The problem I see is that no matter the good intentions of the addict it’s hugely easy to backslide. Even if they’ve agreed to go to rehab, it’s often considered a good idea for someone to accompany the addict on his or her travel. It’s not that I think Mr. Gotbaum made a mistake to stay with the children, just that after my experiences as a patient in mental health circles, I think that the course of wisdom would have been to send a friend of the family or a family member with Ms. Gotbaum. I’ll go so far as to suggest that with the prevalence of airport bars, an alcoholic is probably more in need of a protective companion than people travelling while suffering other medical conditions. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mrs-gotbaum-and-the-unkindness-of-strangers-a-toulouse-lautrec-pitting/422294/10 "2007-10-12T00:15:15Z")
:dubious: and little cynical me says she wanted to be alone so that she could drink. :dubious: Fiercely independent. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mrs-gotbaum-and-the-unkindness-of-strangers-a-toulouse-lautrec-pitting/422294/11 "2007-10-12T00:40:02Z")
[QUOTE=eleanorigby] :dubious: and little cynical me says she wanted to be alone so that she could drink. :dubious: Fiercely independent. :dubious: [/QUOTE] Bull’s-eye. The time to be independent is a long careful while after you _leave_ rehab, not in a sports bar on the way there. Fostering illusions of independence then is idiotic even if the worst doesn’t happen. She was not could not should not have been an independent agent under those circumstances, and everyone involved had probably been apprised of that fact, which is why she was _in_ the damned airport on her _way_ to rehab in the _first_ place. Plenty of money around, and none for a babysitter/traveling companion/relative to see to the part of the family that would otherwise be left alone? Sending her past alcohol without a minder was like sending a diabetic on a long trip without his insulin (almost literally: diabetic problems can mimic aggressive drunkenness, and, left alone, they can and do die). If you send a person who is by definition not capable of functioning independently out into the world to be independent, you have misplaced your intellect and morals both. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mrs-gotbaum-and-the-unkindness-of-strangers-a-toulouse-lautrec-pitting/422294/12 "2007-10-12T03:34:28Z")
[QUOTE=OtakuLoki] **smiling bandit** , I don’t disagree that she needed to be arrested. Where I think the negligence comes in is with the fact that it’s considered the arresting authority’s responsibility to keep a prisoner from doing harm to him or herself. So, I really do think that the case law history is such that this is going to be a slam-dunk case. Whether it should be or not is debatable, I don’t think that the current state of case law is debatable, though. [/QUOTE] I do not know or claim to know the case law. However, given that she was handcuffed and in a position where she really had to struggle to actually do harm to herself, and it came about because of her own gross stupidity, it’s her own fault. AND the police can’t watch anyone all the time. It’s not like they didn’t have other tasks, such as checking leggage for bombs and watching out for hijackers. Which takes a little more precedence. Short version: She dug her own grave and will lie in it, and that’s as far as it ought to go. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mrs-gotbaum-and-the-unkindness-of-strangers-a-toulouse-lautrec-pitting/422294/13 "2007-10-12T04:40:01Z")
The ironic thing is that Tucson is only 100 miles away, which is nothing in the west. For $50 she could have taken one of seventeen daily shuttles by this one [company](http://www.phoenixshuttle.com/DAILY_SCHEDULE.html) alone, and there are probably others. With a little luck, she would have been standing on the curb at the Tucson airport, luggage in hand, scarcely a half hour later than the flight would have gotten her to the same point. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mrs-gotbaum-and-the-unkindness-of-strangers-a-toulouse-lautrec-pitting/422294/14 "2007-10-12T05:56:58Z")
[QUOTE=DesertDog] The ironic thing is that Tucson is only 100 miles away, which is nothing in the west. For $50 she could have taken one of seventeen daily shuttles by this one [company](http://www.phoenixshuttle.com/DAILY_SCHEDULE.html) alone, and there are probably others. With a little luck, she would have been standing on the curb at the Tucson airport, luggage in hand, scarcely a half hour later than the flight would have gotten her to the same point. [/QUOTE] But the shuttle doesn’t have a bar. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mrs-gotbaum-and-the-unkindness-of-strangers-a-toulouse-lautrec-pitting/422294/15 "2007-10-12T14:39:33Z")
Anyone know how she might have managed to choke herself (an educated guess or link)? ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mrs-gotbaum-and-the-unkindness-of-strangers-a-toulouse-lautrec-pitting/422294/16 "2007-10-12T15:02:57Z")
[QUOTE=Cat Fight] Anyone know how she might have managed to choke herself (an educated guess or link)? [/QUOTE] Check out this [link](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=438588) to a GQ thread on the topic. The short answer: With a great deal of effort and determination. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mrs-gotbaum-and-the-unkindness-of-strangers-a-toulouse-lautrec-pitting/422294/17 "2007-10-12T15:08:57Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] Your wife was probably late to the Dry Gulch Express because she was getting drunk in a bar, which is why they probably thought they had an out-of-control drunk on their hands, and that’s why they didn’t respond by giving her inner child a tea party. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=The King of Soup] The time to be independent is a long careful while after you leave rehab, not in a sports bar on the way there. [/QUOTE] Any actual evidence that she had been drinking? The original stories (see links in the earlier thread) indicated that she took a flight to Phoenix slightly later than planned because she wanted to say goodbye to her kids as they went to school (they were asleep when the earlier flight departed). The later flight looked to be an OK connection–she did arrive before the connecting flight departed, just not before they closed boarding. My guess would be more likely DTs or something similar rather than drinking. I don’t agree with the widower’s comments, but I don’t see any reason to pile more abuse on the deceased than she had already brought on herself. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mrs-gotbaum-and-the-unkindness-of-strangers-a-toulouse-lautrec-pitting/422294/18 "2007-10-12T15:16:25Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Any actual evidence that she had been drinking? [/QUOTE] While not evidence, at this point, since it’s simply hearsay testimony, the article **Sampiro** linked in his OP says this: > [@linked article](#): > > But 46 minutes before the Tucson flight was scheduled to leave, Gotbaum went to an airport sports bar to get something to eat, and may have had some drinks there, the source said. She arrived at the gate one minute after boarding was closed, and was not allowed to board. There’s at least reason to suspect that she drank there. And while the DTs are a possibility, that fact, to my mind, simply underscores the wisdom for having had a travelling companion with Ms. Gotbaum. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mrs-gotbaum-and-the-unkindness-of-strangers-a-toulouse-lautrec-pitting/422294/19 "2007-10-12T15:50:05Z")
[QUOTE=OtakuLoki] While not evidence, at this point, since it’s simply hearsay testimony, the article **Sampiro** linked in his OP says this: There’s at least reason to suspect that she drank there. [/QUOTE] I’d say that that was an excellent reason to believe she was drinking. I missed that in a cursory read and I withdraw my objection. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mrs-gotbaum-and-the-unkindness-of-strangers-a-toulouse-lautrec-pitting/422294/20 "2007-10-12T16:27:51Z")
Maybe she had some drinks and after getting in trouble, decided it would be better to commit suicide than go to rehab. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mrs-gotbaum-and-the-unkindness-of-strangers-a-toulouse-lautrec-pitting/422294.md?page=2)