# Ms. Forums-you're all nuts **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 2, 2002, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-forums-youre-all-nuts/106954 "2002-05-02T23:00:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-forums-youre-all-nuts/106954/21 "2002-05-03T16:32:06Z")
oh lovely, another thing for me to worry about. i like doing what i do, i like irishfella doing what he does. he likes doing what he does, he likes me doing what i do. i’m quite happy to say “we love each other, we like making love to each other” and leave it at that. why would i want to analyse all the fun out of it? why do THEY want to? ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-forums-youre-all-nuts/106954/22 "2002-05-03T17:17:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Green Bean \* > So, if you make a noise during sex, then you have to try and figure out whether you made that noise because you sincerely wanted to make that noise, or whether you only made that noise because your evil patriarchal boyfriend expects you to make a noise because he’s been indoctrinated into thinking that the only way women express pleasure is by making a noise by seeing too many Herbal Essences commercials? [Channeling Jack Dean Tyler]No, if the woman moves around or makes a noise during sex it must mean she’s not enjoying it because the man is circumcized.[/Channeling JDT] ---
**Author:** ![belladonna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@belladonna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/belladonna)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-forums-youre-all-nuts/106954/23 "2002-05-03T17:39:46Z")
The lack of a “female money shot” isn’t necessarily due to physiological aspects alone. When a woman approaches orgasm her labia changes from pink to bright red or deep purple, the vaginal lips puff up, the wall of the vagina swells–all these things could be shown if the intent was merely to demonstrate that the female has, indeed, become aroused or come. It’s not about her personal sensations though, it’s about her _overt reaction_ to this big strong stud who’s servicing her. She moans, she thrashes, she grabs his ass and screams for more–none of which can be done without really, really getting into it (or pretending to, anyway). He, on the other hand, strokes, pulls out, gives a quick hurky-jerky with his hand, and unloads. It’s all very detached, an act mostly devoid of any display of emotional or physical vulnerablity’ and I think that contrasts with the female’s orgasmic loss of control in an interesting way. As for the ugly guys in pornos, I can **definitely** see casting going more for the average joes–both to avoid intimidating their target audience and to encourage the “beautiful women want me” fantasy in the viewers. However, lets all remember that the #1 requirement for a male porn star is the ability to achieve and maintain an erection for prolonged periods of time in a room filled with cameras, bright lights, and strange crew members. Maybe the ugly guys just have a little more horny stored up? 🙂 bella se ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-forums-youre-all-nuts/106954/24 "2002-05-03T18:06:48Z")
I disagree, **belladonna**. The physiological aspects you describe just don’t show up as well on video as the purple headed dragon slinging yogurt. I’m not disagreeing that there are physiological signs, but I’m saying that with the men, those signs are MUCH easier to see if he pulls out and slings one at the girl’s lumbar region. I think that there’s really just way too much over analyzing going on when it comes to ‘how women are portrayed in porn’. Then again, I’ve never been of the opinion that a woman in a porno is being degraded in any way whatsoever. I just watch it, and like it, because it’s visually pleasing. So I tend to think that far too much effort gets spent trying to find motives in porn that just aren’t there. ---
**Author:** ![belladonna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@belladonna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/belladonna)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-forums-youre-all-nuts/106954/25 "2002-05-03T18:37:39Z")
We might not disagree as much as you think, **catsix**. I know the changes are not as visible or dramatic in females, I was merely pointing out that they _are_ there, but virtually ignored. I guess at issue is not so much the lack of a female money shot as the dominance of the male one. As for the “porno degrades women” camp–well, let’s just say they sent me home for watching porno in my tent. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Space\_Vampire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Space\_Vampire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Space_Vampire)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-forums-youre-all-nuts/106954/26 "2002-05-03T18:59:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > \*\*SV, I’ll bow to your knowledge of this unless someone else wants to challenge you: like I said, I’m not a real porn connoisseur. But the way it was explained to me, the money shot is the man’s ejaculation, pure and simple. > \*\* D’oh, that’s about the most embarrassing point anybody’s ever conceded to me… Belladonna explained it adequately, I think. I don’t think porn HAS to be degrading or gross, but most of it is. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-forums-youre-all-nuts/106954/27 "2002-05-03T21:10:54Z")
I don’t think it’s degrading at all. Some of it is downright stupid and funny, but it’s not what I’d call degrading. I … really don’t have an issue with the male money shot. I don’t think it ‘dominates’ at all. It’s part of the package, and actually I really LIKE seein it when I watch porn. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-forums-youre-all-nuts/106954/28 "2002-05-03T21:19:03Z")
Back to the OP: Radical Women: Do a want an orgasm or not? Yes? Then shut up and let me get on about business, will ya? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-forums-youre-all-nuts/106954/29 "2002-05-03T23:18:07Z")
I tend to feel that there is something somewhat degrading about focusig in on ejaculating _on a woman_, especially on her face. I can’t seem to really articulate why this is: it may be that it reminds me of urinating on someone–a definite sign of disrespect–or of marking one’s territory, or something like that. I do know I find it disturbing that somehow pulling out of a woman and delivering a load onto her face is somehow more pleasurable than ejaculating onto the bedspread, or even oto her stomach, which seems to be more convinient. I’m not some sort of neurotic prude who dosen’t like to see “dirty” body fluids on “clean” women. If they happen to fall there, fine. But the _aiming_ process bugs me. I know that it’s a porn convention, and that any erotic overtones it has are probably the result of conditioning by porn, rather like having a thing for garter belts and naked women in high heels. But I would be leary of any man who was really, really hung up on coming on my face: as a whimisical request in a whimsical mood, sure. But a guy who wanted to end every othersex act that way would freak me out. I also want to say that I do think it is totally within a woman’s rights to lie about/fake an orgasm. Luckily, I don’t have to–my husband is the sort to whom I can say “Oh, I’m not gonna come this time, so don’t worry about me” and all is well. But if I were a swinging single fucking a man for reasons of mutual pleasure, his ego is not my responsibility, and my responses are none of his business. If I want to lie and aviod a long “Well, why didn’t you come? What did I do wrong?” discussion, that’s my rihgt. He shouldn’t have asked in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![reprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@reprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reprise)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-forums-youre-all-nuts/106954/30 "2002-05-04T00:36:24Z")
If you think their reactions in the thread **Guin** linked to take all the fun out of sex, you should read the responses in the S&M thread. Those folks have some _serious_ issues. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-forums-youre-all-nuts/106954/31 "2002-05-04T02:06:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by reprise \* > \*\*If you think their reactions in the thread **Guin** linked to take all the fun out of sex, you should read the responses in the S&M thread. Those folks have some _serious_ issues. \*\* No shit. [http://www.msmagazine.com/cgi-local/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get\_topic;f=4;t=000845](http://www.msmagazine.com/cgi-local/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000845) Observe: > [@](#): > > Given that this: > > Bind my ankles with your white cotton rope so I cannot walk. Bind my wrists so I cannot push you away. Place me on the bed and wrap your rope tighter around my skin so it grips my flesh. Now I know that struggle is useless, that I must lie here and submit to your mouth and tongue and teeth, your hands and words and whims. I exist only as your object. Exposed. > > is a damned good description of the condition of women in patriarchy, SM isn’t something that I’d EVER call healthy. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > I am curious as to why anyone would want to be submissive in any way. But I have a feeling that so-called submissive men are actually quite patriarchal- they seek power through submitting. It’s another, rather bizzare, way for them to control women. > > As long as it’s all consensual and voluntary, I can’t see any reason to stop BDSM. That being said, I can’t really see any reason to support it, either. It’s just really patriarchy with a kink. > [@](#): > > ## There’s a quote within the Sheila Jeffrey article I found to be quite apt: quote: > > There is no such thing as a “natural” sexual pleasure that can be liberated. What gives men or women sexual sensations is socially constructed out of the power relationship between men and women, and it can be changed. In “sex” the very difference between men and women, supposedly so “natural,” is in fact created. In “sex” the very categories “men,” persons with political power, and “women,” persons of the subordinate class, are made flesh. > > Nor is sex a mere private matter. In liberal male thought, sex has been shoved into the private sphere and seen as a realm of personal freedom where people can express their individual desires and fantasies. But the bedroom is far from private; it is an arena in which the power relationship between men and women is most revealingly played out. Freedom there is usually that of men to realize themselves on and in the bodies of women. > > The question is, how do we combat this? > [@](#): > > And this is just a personal opinion in line with Ananke’s, but I do think the “freedom” many people claim to experience within S&M comes from their feeling that they’ve temporarily escaped some difficulty patriarchy imposed on them – for men who “bottom,” it might be the difficulty wherein they are expected to be in control and on top of things all the time, and for women, it might be the difficulty wherein they feel they are prohibited from enjoying their sexuality or feel guilty for engaging in sex on some level. The problem is, the “escape” experienced in S&M comes from, at some level, simply acceding to patriarchy’s demands on a more rigorous level than previously. Women who “bottom” escape any guilt or feelings of discomfort with being sexual because they “have no choice” about being sexual – but of course, that’s even more patriarchal than the prior option. Men who “bottom” escape the feeling of being in charge, maybe, but it’s a temporary relief, and they like it for its very temporary nature, IMO. Good lord, one wonders what they would have said had they participated in the “rape fantasy” thread we had here one time. Ugh. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-forums-youre-all-nuts/106954/32 "2002-05-04T02:13:58Z")
They went to the Andrea Dworkin School of Sexual Education, apparently. No matter, I will be waiting to pick up the pieces of the saints who are currently dating them when their ‘You are an evil oppressor’ schtick finally reaches these poor souls breaking points. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-forums-youre-all-nuts/106954/33 "2002-05-04T02:20:40Z")
I think I can see now why the word “Feminist” has such a negative connotation. ---
**Author:** ![reprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@reprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reprise)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-forums-youre-all-nuts/106954/34 "2002-05-04T02:25:44Z")
Feminism is about empowering woman to make their own choices; I don’t think you could **anyone** could accuse the posters at that place of wanting women to exercise choices - they are too busy pushing their anti-patriarchy manifesto. ---
**Author:** ![belladonna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@belladonna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/belladonna)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-forums-youre-all-nuts/106954/35 "2002-05-04T02:31:28Z")
Wow. It must be **so** taxing for those poor enlightened souls to be forced to live among us porn-watching, sex-loving, orgasm-having commoners. Maybe, someday, when I admit that sex is nothing but the tool of my power-hungry oppressors, I can learn to hate it as much as they do. Won’t that be grand! bella ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-forums-youre-all-nuts/106954/36 "2002-05-04T02:51:12Z")
Guin, I wouldn’t judge all feminists by this thread, anymore than I’d judge all environmentalists by the “loggers are murderers” crowd that infested the college I went to. I consider myself both feminist and environmentalist, and I despise the extremes that folks sometimes go to in either field. In fact, I even think that patriarchal dominance of society is a real problem. But I think it’s important to recognize where the problem exists (e.g., in the fact that 90+ percent of top executives are men) and where it doesn’t exist (e.g., in the fact that some men like it when their sexual partners come). I think that when people want to awfulize every aspect of life with their pet theory, they do more to discredit their theory than they do to sully the reputation of otherwise good things. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-forums-youre-all-nuts/106954/37 "2002-05-04T02:54:44Z")
Well, I think most women would be feminist, in that they just want equality. But, this group…I dunno… ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-forums-youre-all-nuts/106954/38 "2002-05-04T02:56:18Z")
They went to the Andrea Dworkin School of Sexual Education, apparently. No matter, I will be waiting to pick up the pieces of the saints who are currently dating them when their ‘You are an evil oppressor’ schtick finally reaches these poor souls breaking points. ---
**Author:** ![porcupine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac91a4/32.png) [@porcupine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/porcupine)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-forums-youre-all-nuts/106954/39 "2002-05-04T03:43:39Z")
Unbelievable. Who wants to start a thread there claiming that doggy-style sex is perpetuating patriarchal dominance? Hell, even missionary-style sex is; after all, he’s on top, right? ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-forums-youre-all-nuts/106954/40 "2002-05-04T03:44:56Z")
!!TMI ALERT!! > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Manda JO \* > **I tend to feel that there is something somewhat degrading about focusig in on ejaculating _on a woman_, especially on her face.** I feel otherwise. (I’m not saying you’re “wrong”, just that I have a different feeling about this than you.) Personally, I adore watching facial money-shots. I find them very erotic. I don’t think they are demeaning or degrading at all. (I’ve had fantasies where _I’m_ the reciever … ) The way I see it, you get to see the cute face and the ejaculation all in one shot. On the other hand, bondage seems extremly degrading and demeaning at first glance - yet my two female roommates _love_ bondage. They leave their stupid bondage fetish magazines lying around the apartment all the time. 🙂 (They’re both self-described feminists.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-forums-youre-all-nuts/106954.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-forums-youre-all-nuts/106954.md?page=3)