# MS is this a cure for it? Hope so.....

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-is-this-a-cure-for-it-hope-so/518726>\
**Category:** Factual Questions\
**Created:** [November 24, 2009, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-is-this-a-cure-for-it-hope-so/518726 "2009-11-24T02:18:19Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\
**Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-is-this-a-cure-for-it-hope-so/518726/21 "2009-11-25T22:53:54Z")

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> [@Dandmb50](#):
>
> \<HTML\>  
> \<HEAD\>  
> \<TITLE\>Toronto\</TITLE\>  
> \</HEAD\>  
> \<BODY\>  
> \<a href=“[http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j83/dandmb50/SnowMelter-2-1.jpg](http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j83/dandmb50/SnowMelter-2-1.jpg)”\>\<img src=“[http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j83/dandmb50/SnowMelter-2-1.jpg](http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j83/dandmb50/SnowMelter-2-1.jpg)” alt=“hello” /\>\</a\>  
> \</BODY\>  
> \</HTML\>
> 
> still trying so I just get one word for the link??

You can’t use HTML or embed images in SDMB.

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**Author:** ![D18](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@D18](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D18)\
**Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-is-this-a-cure-for-it-hope-so/518726/22 "2009-11-26T01:35:13Z")

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> [@Marley23](#):
>
> I’ve heard of dummy injections and dummy pills, but never a fake surgery. That comes a lot closer to violating the Hippocratic Oath. I think it’s more likely you would see a study that compares vascular surgery and typical treatment.

Researchers do indeed conduct sham procedures as a control arm in trials designed to test the efficacy of new procedures.

> **[Sham surgery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sham_surgery)**
>
> Sham surgery (or placebo surgery) is a faked surgical intervention that omits the step thought to be therapeutically necessary.
> In clinical trials of surgical interventions, sham surgery is an important scientific control. This is because it isolates the specific effects of the treatment as opposed to the incidental effects caused by anesthesia, the incisional trauma, pre- and postoperative care, and the patient's perception of having had a regular operation. Thus sham surgery serves an analogou...

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**Author:** ![Dandmb50](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ba9def/32.png) [@Dandmb50](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dandmb50)\
**Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-is-this-a-cure-for-it-hope-so/518726/23 "2009-11-26T02:16:17Z")

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delete

test

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**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\
**Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-is-this-a-cure-for-it-hope-so/518726/24 "2009-11-26T03:49:54Z")

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**Dandmb50** , if all those almost-empty posts are due to coding experiments and if you’re using “Quick reply,” click on “Go Advanced” and then use “Preview,” please.

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**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\
**Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-is-this-a-cure-for-it-hope-so/518726/25 "2009-11-26T05:06:37Z")

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I think he is trying to demonstrate to us why it’s so debilitating to have MS.

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**Author:** ![Dandmb50](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ba9def/32.png) [@Dandmb50](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dandmb50)\
**Post date:** [November 27, 2009, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-is-this-a-cure-for-it-hope-so/518726/26 "2009-11-27T07:16:35Z")

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Still think at least it’s chance to do the study and I just hope it works out…

[![](https://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j83/dandmb50/DSC_0074-2.jpg) ](https://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j83/dandmb50/DSC_0074-2.jpg)

anyone know how I can change the url to just show

click here

or

phot

instead of the long string of the url?

Daniel … Toronto

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**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\
**Post date:** [November 27, 2009, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-is-this-a-cure-for-it-hope-so/518726/27 "2009-11-27T11:25:41Z")

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> [@Dandmb50](#):
>
> anyone know how I can change the url to just show
> 
> click here
> 
> or
> 
> phot
> 
> instead of the long string of the url?

Post #12 by **Nava** tells you how to do the former. You can’t embed images directly in posts here.

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**Author:** ![Meurglys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/258eb7/32.png) [@Meurglys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meurglys)\
**Post date:** [November 27, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-is-this-a-cure-for-it-hope-so/518726/28 "2009-11-27T15:58:46Z")

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Type a message, highlight the word or phrase you want to be clicked as the link, then click on the ‘link’ icon and insert the link in the little box that appears…

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**Author:** ![Dandmb50](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ba9def/32.png) [@Dandmb50](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dandmb50)\
**Post date:** [November 27, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-is-this-a-cure-for-it-hope-so/518726/29 "2009-11-27T17:31:01Z")

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> [@Meurglys](#):
>
> Type a message, highlight the word or phrase you want to be clicked as the link, then click on the ‘link’ icon and insert the link in the little box that appears…

Many thanks I think I got it now.

picture"][picture](http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j83/dandmb50/SnowMelter-2-1.jpg)

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**Author:** ![Maia\_s\_Well](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@Maia\_s\_Well](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maia_s_Well)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-is-this-a-cure-for-it-hope-so/518726/30 "2009-11-28T17:01:04Z")

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In the two and a half years since I’ve been diagnosed with MS, this is the first development that has really caught my interest.

There is a great distance between what medical science tells us MS is and what it’s like, and what patients actually experience. I believe the model of MS which assumes the beginning of the disease is when the lesions start to appear is incorrect. Fortunately, there is research going on that challenges that idea. Unfortunately, this news has not reached all the doctors who actually treat patients with MS, so you still hear doctors say stupid things like, “the number of lesions on your MRI don’t justify the symptoms you claim to have”, and you still have lots of sick people who are refused any MS treatments until they become disabled enough (instead of getting on treatment BEFORE that happens).

The whole thing is pretty crazy-making. I mean, having MS is difficult enough without having to go through what many patients experience with medical personnel.

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**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\
**Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-is-this-a-cure-for-it-hope-so/518726/31 "2009-11-30T01:19:04Z")

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> [@Dandmb50](#):
>
> … a Dr Zamboni. He says that nearly 100% of people suffering from the disease have blocked **arteries that come from the brain** and thus force iron to remain in the brain which he believes causes the symtoms of M…S.

What is he a Doctor of, Ice-cleaning or something? Arteries go _to_ the brain, the blood vessels that come _from_ the brain are called veins.

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**Author:** ![Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harriet_the_Spry)\
**Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-is-this-a-cure-for-it-hope-so/518726/32 "2009-11-30T02:00:35Z")

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> [@Askance](#):
>
> What is he a Doctor of, Ice-cleaning or something? Arteries go _to_ the brain, the blood vessels that come _from_ the brain are called veins.

Arteries come from the heart and veins go to the heart. Brain != heart.

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**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\
**Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-is-this-a-cure-for-it-hope-so/518726/33 "2009-11-30T13:46:01Z")

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> [@Harriet\_the\_Spry](#):
>
> Arteries come from the heart and veins go to the heart. Brain != heart.

Yes, but **Askance** is correct in the sense that a blood vessel coming into the brain is carrying blood from the heart, not from anywhere else, hence it would be an artery (or arteriole, depending where the branching occurs). Similarly a blood vessel leading from the brain would be headed towards the heart and hence would be a vein (or venule). Similarly for blood vessels to/from other organs.

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**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\
**Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-is-this-a-cure-for-it-hope-so/518726/34 "2009-11-30T15:27:19Z")

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Yeah, if a serious network news show (Canda’s equivalent of 20/20) had not devoted most of a show to his developments, it would immediately be dismissed as a joke based on the name. I guess there really is a “Zamboni” in Italy. In Canada, every rink has a zamboni and if you have a comedy skit and want laughs with an Italian name, you obviously use “Zamboni”.

Seriously, there’s Jerry Pournelle’s iron law of bureaucracies. An organization will evolve to the point where it’s main purpose it to keep itself alive. Polio is pretty much gone, but the March of Dimes lives on. Someone who works with MS all their life does not want to hear “oh, just unblock the veins”. The MS “industry” is huge. Heck, how much money did 1 Jerrython raise every year?

Anyone remember that until the early 90’s, stomach ulcers were caused by worry and lifestyle? Suddenly, it was discovered that a dose of antibiotics would cure them because they were simple infections. This wouldn’t be the first time that a world full of experts were completely lost as to the proper process for treating a disease.

Banting and Best were graduates who were grudgingly given a small room to experiment at the University of Toronto with diabetes in the 1920’s. They figured out how to treat diabetes so sufferers could live, not die. Of course, when it came time for the Nobel Prize, can’t have mere graduate student assistant Best on the list, but the head of the Lab, who made no contribution, thoughtfully added himself to the Nobel Prize list.

I would love to see a list published of the doctors who said “don’t even try this treatment”. Even if it becomes a repetitive thing - the veins reclose by themselves and repeat surgery is needed- if it helps at all then it is better than nothing. There is a small risk with angioplasty, but any lifestyle improvement is … improvement.

The odd thing is that Dr. Zamboni claims that EVERY single MS patient he examined has the blocked blood vessels. That is a simple test that any hospital with the right equipment can verify. Why would any group actively oppose that? Even if you could find 10% who failed that criteria, it would prove he is not completely on the right track. That’s better than just saying “Oh, he’s got to be wrong!” Doing the procedure and showing that without blockages, X% continue to deteriorate or have attacks - even better proof. The key word here is proof.

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**Author:** ![Maia\_s\_Well](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@Maia\_s\_Well](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maia_s_Well)\
**Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-is-this-a-cure-for-it-hope-so/518726/35 "2009-12-02T17:20:05Z")

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Turns out this starts from a plumbing problem. The electricians are not in a hurry to congratulate the plumber.

I am not the only MS patient who is very excited about this theory, and many of us, when asked why, say that this is the first thing we’ve heard that _makes sense_.

MS is defined by the visible lesions on MRI. But most of us have the experience of developing MS symptoms long before lesions first appear. It has never made sense to me, for example, that a lesion in the white matter of the brain could cause ongoing cognitive issues _within_ the brain. Every time my MS progresses, and I lose yet another ability (the most recent is the ability to hold my head up straight), my neuro sends me for another MRI, then expresses surprise that there are no new lesions. He’s surprised, even though lesion load or location has no correlation to how disabled a person is, what kind of symptoms or disabilities she or he has, or any other real effect. I finally asked him, “if lesion load doesn’t correlate directly with symptoms, why do you keep sending me for MRIs?” and he kind of chuckled and answered, “I don’t know.”

I don’t expect the answer to multiple sclerosis to come from within the community that refuses to question a flawed disease model.

So, I’m currently looking for a plumber. I like my electrician, and he helps me with some symptoms, but he’s got nothing to offer me to help me get out of this chair and back into the world.

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**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\
**Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-is-this-a-cure-for-it-hope-so/518726/36 "2009-12-02T17:31:19Z")

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Good luck - I hope you find a great plumber and you find some relief.

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**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\
**Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-is-this-a-cure-for-it-hope-so/518726/37 "2009-12-02T19:18:06Z")

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Why would they NOT try it? What does an MRI and an afternoon of angioplasty cost? $10,000? $20,000? Angioplasty by now is minimal risk.

I bet there are a decent number of MS patients who would pay that out of their savings… The one fellow in the TV story flew himself to Italy from California to try the treatment. He said he could feel a change the moment the blockage was opened, and has not had an attack since.

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**Author:** ![Minnie\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Minnie\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Minnie_Luna)\
**Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-is-this-a-cure-for-it-hope-so/518726/38 "2009-12-02T20:36:53Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> MS is defined by the visible lesions on MRI. But most of us have the experience of developing MS symptoms long before lesions first appear.

You are overlooking the immune system component of MS. Based on the McDonald Criteria for diagnosing MS (now the definitive standard), you have to have a positive CSF to qualify for diagnosis.

What I want to know is how can you “cure” MS by only opening up the blood vessels? I can see how brain function is altered by low blood flow, but you haven’t eliminated or even attempted to stop the damage caused by the immune system with this procedure. Your brain is still susceptible to more plaques.

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**Author:** ![Minnie\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Minnie\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Minnie_Luna)\
**Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-is-this-a-cure-for-it-hope-so/518726/39 "2009-12-02T21:30:06Z")

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There are a couple of things in this article which disturb me.

First:

> [@](#):
>
> Haake’s research is being done with no funding; he’s unwilling to wait the nine months to a year needed to get formal research funding applications approved. Urgency, he says, is needed in finding the answer to the question of whether Dr. Zamboni is right.

This raises many red flags for me, as a scientist. If you are unwilling to procure formal funds, you most likely have a flawed premise or your scientific data is not very good. I looked up good ol’ Mark Haake on Medline. What a surprise!! He hasn’t published anything!! Not a scientist I would base my “cure” on. Haake is also not listed as faculty at Wayne State University, nor McMaster University, where he claims to be. If you google “Mark Haake” all you find is his name in this article, no other accomplishments.

Secondly:

> [@](#):
>
> The MS Societies of Canada and the U.S. are reticent to support Zamboni’s theories. They maintain that: “Based on results published about these findings to date, there is not enough evidence to say that obstruction of veins causes MS… It is still not clear whether relieving venous obstructions would be beneficial.”

I think this says it all. Until the MS Society, endorses it, it’s not going to get anywhere with most patients.

Zamboni’s publishing record is not very impressive. He seems to think that MS degrades patients only through iron toxicity and seems to wish away the auto-immune portion of the disease.

Plus, I never trust a study with 100% positive outcome, it is way too fishy for me to truly believe.

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**Author:** ![parthenokinesis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/cc9497/32.png) [@parthenokinesis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/parthenokinesis)\
**Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-is-this-a-cure-for-it-hope-so/518726/40 "2009-12-03T18:36:42Z")

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> [@Minnie\_Luna](#):
>
> You are overlooking the immune system component of MS. Based on the McDonald Criteria for diagnosing MS (now the definitive standard), you have to have a positive CSF to qualify for diagnosis.
> 
> What I want to know is how can you “cure” MS by only opening up the blood vessels? I can see how brain function is altered by low blood flow, but you haven’t eliminated or even attempted to stop the damage caused by the immune system with this procedure. Your brain is still susceptible to more plaques.

In the proposed disease model, the venous insufficiency is not causing low blood flow. It is causing back flow, leading to blood crossing the blood/brain barrier which would then trigger an auto immune response. It doesn’t ignore the immune system component, it offers an explanation for it. Since the current disease theory seems to have been created by the underpants gnomes (step two ???, step three demylenation) There’s really no wonder why so many MS patients are excited by the study.

Oh, and a positive CSF test is not necessary for diagnosis, it is a possible indicator but MRI visible lesions and clinical data are also acceptable.

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