# Ms. Ocasio-Cortez, on How to Pay for Medicare for All **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 3, 2018, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514 "2018-12-03T18:43:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2018, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/241 "2018-12-11T14:43:06Z")
> [@Dacien](#): > > Oh and by the way, Charles C.W. Cooke detailed some factors that were baked in to the cost estimate in order to reach the $32 trillion price tag over ten years: > > [ul] > [li]Force every doctor and hospital in America to accept Medicare reimbursement rates for all patients — these are 40 percent lower than the rates paid by private insurance — while assuming that this would have absolutely no effect on their capacity or willingness to provide services[/li][li][Raise taxes by 10 percent of GDP](https://twitter.com/Brian_Riedl/status/1024110317431808000)[/li][li]Explain to the 150 million people with private insurance that the rules have been changed so dramatically that (a) they can no longer keep their plans, and (b) henceforth, tens of millions among them will be paying more in taxes than they were previously paying in both premiums and out-of-pocket costs[/li][/ul] > > In short, things that will never happen for $32 trillion, Alex. Wait, the 32 trillion price tag INCLUDES a tax increase that offsets the insurance premium savings? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2018, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/242 "2018-12-11T14:54:36Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If we reduced our military to the same percentage of our GDP as China, we would save over 300 billion per year. Go back to a Clinton tax regime and you end up with enough money for European style socialism. Well, you’ve solved everything. Let’s do it. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2018, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/243 "2018-12-11T15:07:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If doubling federal income taxes is insufficient to cover the cost of M4A, then it is necessary for the deficit to increase. No. M4A requires that most current health care premiums be converted into taxes. MOST healthcare premiums are paid by employers. Why are we letting employers off the hook with a mere doubling of their historically low corporate tax rates? Have current premiums paid in taxes (the math isn’t too hard) and add a reversion to Clinton era taxes and you are there. > [@](#): > > Actually what I am saying - or rather, what the report is saying - is that IF we dramatically cut payments to health care providers, and IF we dramatically cut drug prices, and IF we cut administrative costs, and IF we double federal income taxes, we will increase the deficit. > > Regards, > Shodan I read the report and I don’t find it convincing at all. The average family plan is about 18K, employers pay about 12K of it. This is more than large employers pay in corporate taxes generally. IOW, if you told large employers you would either double their corporate taxes or double their health care costs, most of them would rationally choose to double their current historically low taxes. [http://files.kff.org/attachment/ehbs-2014-abstract-summary-of-findings](http://files.kff.org/attachment/ehbs-2014-abstract-summary-of-findings) ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2018, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/244 "2018-12-11T15:18:46Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I suspect the weed that Shodan is smoking is the “If the U.S. wasn’t paying high prices for these drugs, pharmaceutical R&D would grind to a halt. Therefore the US is subsidizing the rest of the world’s cheaper drugs.” type. **Shodan** , is CarnalK onto something here? If so, would this be related to my question from a few posts up? > [@](#): > > I am saying that even if drug prices stay the same, there are other benefits to M4A. Why does not cutting drug prices invalidate the whole thing? If not, could you please answer it? I want to understand what you mean by this. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2018, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/245 "2018-12-11T16:00:22Z")
Why does it have to be either or? Instead of single payer health care, how about just single payer medicines/drugs? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2018, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/246 "2018-12-11T16:28:52Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > I believe this great post is getting buried under debates of “whataboutism”. Would any of the several conservative folks like to take a stab at challenging this post? We are already paying more for healthcare in the US than most countries with universal healthcare. Wouldn’t it make sense to try out one of these less expensive models? I know there will be the “death boards” and “one year wait to get a wart removed” topics thrown out, but you also support doing away with coverage of pre-existing conditions. There must be a way to improve our immensely over-expensive system. A well constructed universal health care system is about it. Every band aid along the way is probably MORE expensive. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/247 "2018-12-11T16:32:50Z")
> [@Huey\_Freeman](#): > > Here we have yet another post from Grand Dragon Shodan affirming another person of color is stupid as shit. > > I know this’ll upset my patchouli smelling liberal friends but there is nothing wrong with whatbaboutism. Although whataboutism is a tool of white supremacy, it is also one of the only tools that white supremacists understand. White liberal reluctance to use the rhetorical tools of white supremacy is the reason white supremacists are winning, and you’re not. White folks don’t speak in truth, they speak in equivocation and whataboutery. In fact, white folks, in my view, are incapable of recognizing the fucking truth. We saw this with Dr. Ford. > > Whataboutism is effective in pointing out hypocrisy. Pointing out that white supremacists like Grand Dragon Shodan is holding 29-year-old not-sworn-in congresswoman to a higher standard than the President of the United States says a lot about his (white supremacist) frame of reference. You have the President of the United Stated – elected by white people – get on national television and claim that Frederick-fucking-Douglas is out here fighting the good fight against slavery, and Grand Dragon Shodan - who collects children of color like beanie babies - was too busy virtue signaling to comment. He is literally an ambulatory dumpster-fire of white supremacy. > > What you see Grand Dragon Shodan do is exactly what people of color experience in our lives at work. We. Have. To. Be. Perfect. If a white man misspells potato, it is not taken it as an indictment on his intelligence; if a black man misstates a fact (like 57 states), it taken as an indictment of his stupidity. Grand Dragon Shodan perpetuates the same trope for other people of color (like Ms. Ocasio-Cortez). > > If this were a video game, Grand Dragon Shodan would be a level 999 racist. He’s mastered coded language to the point where he instinctively attacks the intelligence of people of color. I don’t even think he thinks about it. He just does. It’s quite an achievement. Grand Dragon Shodan even went down the path of arch-racists like Laura Ingraham and David French and adopted a person of color not to just appear more cosmopolitan but to virtue signal in order to deflect accusations of racism. AFAICT, he pretty much thinks ALL liberals are stupid. I’ve never seen him denigrate stuff said by Condoleeza Rice or Nikki Haley. I don’t recall him saying Clarence Thomas is stupid or that Alan West is of inferior intelligence. On the other hand I’ve seen him call quite a few white liberals stupid. The fact that most people of color are liberals might make it seem like he is a racist but he is MOSTLY just partisan. He might be racist as all hell but its not because he thinks that all liberals are stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/248 "2018-12-11T16:43:29Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Do you honestly think that the fact that women [and most of us] care about their appearance is a relevant response/rebuttal to the point I raised? Well, your statement does come off as oversensitive. YMMV ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2018, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/249 "2018-12-11T16:52:50Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Are you saying that the ability for people to keep their current providers (i.e. doctors) isn’t a major concern for people? Or that people are just going to suck that up because M4A is so awesome? > > That’s going to piss a LOT of people off- many have built up decades long relationships with their doctors (primary care & specialists both), and will not take kindly to being told that they don’t get to choose or continue to go to their current one (the same thing, ultimately). Many universal health care systems are not closed systems. They allow for supplemental health care insurance. This usually falls into 2 categories. Your supplemental health care provides ALL the compensation to the health care provider so you effectively pay twice (once through taxes and once through your supplemental (kind of like sending your kids to private school), the other kind pays for stuff that the universal healthcare doesn’t pay for (covers deductibles and pays for stuff that your insurance simply won’t treat), this would be like sending your kids to afterschool enrichment classes after their public school curriculum is over. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2018, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/250 "2018-12-11T16:56:16Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > This is the math that most people don’t have the emotional capacity to hang onto or understand, particularly when it goes up against political faith-based beliefs like “if the government is involved, it’s going to be worse”; the person who figures out how to make this concept stick is the person who leads us out of the quagmire. The problem is that it is only true for maybe 80% of the population. The other 20% pay more and too many people think they are in the top 20% or will be soon. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2018, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/251 "2018-12-11T20:25:41Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Well, you’ve solved everything. Let’s do it. Now just elect the congress and white house to do it. Cutting military spending is a nightmare (why do you hate the troops?). We were able to do it for that brief period of time between the end of the cold war and 9/11. But every other country with a large defense budget in the world (outside the middle east) was cutting defense even faster than we were. Then we started ramping up to fight Osama Bin Laden and guess what Russia did. Guess what China did? If we ever get a president that is willing to raise taxes and take on defense contractors, the insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, etc. at the same time, we will be naming a holiday after him just after he gets assassinated. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2018, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/252 "2018-12-11T21:57:05Z")
I think you guys are wasting your time trying to engage Shodan on the substance of this discussion. As is typical, he just wants to say “Hur Hur stupid librul said something silly.” and expects everyone to respect the implied “FULL STOP” that follows all GOP pronouncements. For instance, “I don’t believe my own administration’s climate change report!” “But Mr. President, based on what? What evidence, what counterargument, what reason?” You’re wasting your time. There is no there there, just churlish anti-liberal glurge. It is just reflexive behavior, kind of like how the bodies of coma patients still chug along with basic processes. AOC said something silly. Got that? Hope so, cuz that’s all you get. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2018, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/253 "2018-12-11T22:36:45Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I think you guys are wasting your time trying to engage Shodan on the substance of this discussion. As is typical, he just wants to say “Hur Hur stupid librul said something silly.” and expects everyone to respect the implied “FULL STOP” that follows all GOP pronouncements. For instance, “I don’t believe my own administration’s climate change report!” “But Mr. President, based on what? What evidence, what counterargument, what reason?” > > You’re wasting your time. There is no there there, just churlish anti-liberal glurge. It is just reflexive behavior, kind of like how the bodies of coma patients still chug along with basic processes. > > AOC said something silly. Got that? Hope so, cuz that’s all you get. … and like I said earlier in the thread (and it got ignored), looking at how Repubs REALLY care about the deficit - they DON’T, let’s drop that bullshit. They don’t give a rat fuck about any deficit, except as a political talking point - and a phony one at that. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2018, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/254 "2018-12-11T22:56:28Z")
They don’t behave principles of any kind. They don’t even believe in democracy itself. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/255 "2018-12-12T02:07:32Z")
You know Trump Derangement Syndrome? Shodan has the conservative sequela. He’s drunk on liberal tears. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/256 "2018-12-12T02:33:37Z")
There is additional thinking. It’s “progressive said something stupid, so this proves progressives are stupid.” And the only real reason to make a big deal out of this, even if you assume she said something stupid, is because you want to combat it. It’s **Shodan** ’s MO. He very often just uses mockery or sarcasm as a substitute for argument. The more he uses it, the more you can tell that he’s floundering for ways to genuinely debate. And he’s used it a lot more this year. Trump shows that, at least for some people, mockery works. That’s why he comes up with those nicknames. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/257 "2018-12-13T13:48:17Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I think you guys are wasting your time trying to engage Shodan on the substance of this discussion. As is typical, he just wants to say “Hur Hur stupid librul said something silly.” and expects everyone to respect the implied “FULL STOP” that follows all GOP pronouncements. For instance, “I don’t believe my own administration’s climate change report!” “But Mr. President, based on what? What evidence, what counterargument, what reason?” > > You’re wasting your time. There is no there there, just churlish anti-liberal glurge. It is just reflexive behavior, kind of like how the bodies of coma patients still chug along with basic processes. > > AOC said something silly. Got that? Hope so, cuz that’s all you get. AOC did more than say something silly. She displayed a gross ignorance of the size and scope of government. I suspect this is largely the result of too much tweeting. So perhaps we should cut her the same slack on this board we cut for POTUS. I am rooting for her. She is a much better vehicle to call out corruption than Maxine Waters. She’s already impresses me with her failure to sell out as soon as she got off the plane. Most people sell out on the plane ride over to DC. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/258 "2018-12-13T13:53:07Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > There is additional thinking. It’s “progressive said something stupid, so this proves progressives are stupid.” And the only real reason to make a big deal out of this, even if you assume she said something stupid, is because you want to combat it. Right, because we never imply that “trump said stupid things so trump supporters are stupid” And Shodan isn’t saying that progressives are stupid. He seems to be saying that AOC is stupid (she’s not). ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/259 "2018-12-13T15:26:09Z")
The big difference here is that AOC’s more vapid comments aren’t being translated directly into national policy. Also, I’d wager though I can’t guarantee that if confronted with her error, she might accommodate new information and adjust accordingly. Let’s give her a year at least. Contrast with the entirety of the GOP. Supply side economics has been debunked for decades, but this blatant oligarchic corruption is policy at a cost of a $1T deficit, and pretty much to a man every GOP Congress critter plays dumb about it. Climate policy? Corrupt, willed ignorance of the science. New rules on waterways? Science thrown out to impose a corrupt policy of willed ignorance to favor polluting industries. And so on down the line, in almost every department, we see destructive to the public willed ignorance out of GOP policy, whereas (I assume) AOC is merely inexperienced. She has good values (I think), which is the main point, and also why it is so infuriating when propaganda thralls like Shodan waste all of our time with these inconsequential gotcha gripes. That stupid motherfucker needs to take the beam out of his own eye before he attends to the mote in AOC’s. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/260 "2018-12-13T17:35:20Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > AOC did more than say something silly. She displayed a **gross** ignorance of the **size and scope** of government. Exaggerate much? Yes, she showed some ignorance, but come on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514.md?page=14)