# Ms. Ocasio-Cortez, on How to Pay for Medicare for All **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 3, 2018, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514 "2018-12-03T18:43:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/321 "2019-01-08T02:47:38Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > Just like getting Trump to explain how he was going to get Mexico to pay for his useless wall. > > Right? > > Right? Right! ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/322 "2019-01-08T02:59:10Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > In a highly predicable defense of herself, she claims that anyone accusing her of a factual error just doesn’t understand that she was… uh, speaking in metaphors or something. Or maybe it’s principles? Could be ideas… or morals… but definitely not facts. > > To review, this is what she posted: > And this is how she said that everyone in the reality-based community is, like, sooooo dumb. > [https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/01/07/alexandria-ocasio-cortezs-very-bad-defense-her-falsehoods/?utm\_term=.b93a044822d1](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/01/07/alexandria-ocasio-cortezs-very-bad-defense-her-falsehoods/?utm_term=.b93a044822d1) > > She reminds me of the recent college graduate who gets hired to a job, and instantly thinks (a) they are smarter than everyone else, and (b) nobody appreciates how awesome they are. Her answer here is straight up bullshit. It is like she didn’t know Colbert’s Truthiness was a parody. ---
**Author:** ![Dacien](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dacien/32/5663_2.png) [@Dacien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dacien)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/323 "2019-01-08T03:27:48Z")
One thing I will say is that Mrs. Cortez is being taken way out of context in her remarks about “Some people care more about being semantically, factually correct than being morally right” (paraphrasing). She’s not saying that it’s more important to be morally right than factually correct, she’s saying some people care more about factual details than about the bigger picture of what she’s trying to say. If there’s one thing I don’t care for, it’s mischaracterization. It puts an absolute halt to any kind of meaningful debate. ---
**Author:** ![Dacien](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dacien/32/5663_2.png) [@Dacien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dacien)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/324 "2019-01-08T03:34:36Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Yeah, IKWYM. In reality, I think a smart Republican (and such do actually still exist) would be happy to run against her as a presidential or vice presidential candidate (not, obviously until she becomes eligible in 2024 or later). She has yet to show any evidence that she appeals to swing voters. Which is why if anyone should be scared of her, it is pragmatic Democrats who want to win. She has so much appeal to certain segments of the party, she could cause a lot of trouble in presidential primaries that could lead to an own-goal November defeat. > > ETA: Hi, EE. Still butthurt, I see. If _any_ of the consequences of her policy proposals hit home, became something Americans would have to shoulder, they’d turn on her in a heartbeat. But everything she proposes is wonderful in the abstract, without all of those messy numbers getting in the way. Edit: Should be “Ms. Cortez” above. This five minute rule is brutal. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/325 "2019-01-08T03:55:53Z")
> [@Dacien](#): > > If _any_ of the consequences of her policy proposals hit home, became something Americans would have to shoulder, they’d turn on her in a heartbeat. But everything she proposes is wonderful in the abstract, without all of those messy numbers getting in the way. I like how you assume that her policy proposals would be bad if actually implemented. Whereas there’s a nobel laurate economist who thinks her proposals are actually pretty good, probably because she’s been getting up-to-speed with briefings from other nobel laurate economists. ---
**Author:** ![Dacien](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dacien/32/5663_2.png) [@Dacien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dacien)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/326 "2019-01-08T03:58:06Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I like how you assume that her policy proposals would be bad if actually implemented. Whereas there’s a nobel laurate economist who thinks her proposals are actually pretty good, probably because she’s been getting up-to-speed with briefings from other nobel laurate economists. Alright, well, as soon as those massive tax increases are on the table _across the board_ (not just the super wealthy), we’ll have a talk about what all went wrong with Ms. Cortez’ popularity. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/327 "2019-01-08T04:01:03Z")
> [@Dacien](#): > > Alright, well, as soon as those massive tax increases are on the table _across the board_ (not just the super wealthy), we’ll have a talk about what all went wrong with Ms. Cortez’ popularity. Considering her proposal is for tax increases only on the super-wealthy, I think that’s an unlikely outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Dacien](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dacien/32/5663_2.png) [@Dacien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dacien)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/328 "2019-01-08T04:08:48Z")
You cannot possibly pay for “Medicare for All” with only a massive tax hike on the super wealthy. This is probably why she dodges around how she’ll pay for it, saying “You just pay it!” and the like. Bottom line is, her policy goals would _necessitate_ an across the board tax hike. [http://time.com/money/5495760/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-70-percent-tax-rate-rich/](http://time.com/money/5495760/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-70-percent-tax-rate-rich/) > **[The Middle Class, Not ‘the Rich,’ Is Where the Money Lies | National Review](https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-flawed-tax-plan/)** > > Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, who is enjoying something of a honeymoon at the moment, wants to introduce a new 70 percent tax bracket that would catch only “the rich” in its clutches. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/329 "2019-01-08T04:19:38Z")
> [@Dacien](#): > > Alright, well, as soon as those massive tax increases are on the table _across the board_ (not just the super wealthy), we’ll have a talk about what all went wrong with Ms. Cortez’ popularity. Since the only people she needs to keep happy at this point are those in her district, I don’t think that will be a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/330 "2019-01-08T04:32:50Z")
> [@Dacien](#): > > You cannot possibly pay for “Medicare for All” with only a massive tax hike on the super wealthy. This is probably why she dodges around how she’ll pay for it, saying “You just pay it!” and the like. Medicare for all is **two trillion dollars cheaper** than our current system, per a right-wing think tank that went out of their way to exaggerate the costs of medicare for all. Which means we certainly can “just pay for it”. And save 2 trillion dollars in doing so. Saying we’ll need a “massive tax increase” to pay for something that’s $2 TRILLION DOLLARS CHEAPER than the more expensive thing WE’RE ALREADY PAYING FOR that it will replace is bullshit sophistry. I suspect everyone who makes that claim is knowingly lying or an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Dacien](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dacien/32/5663_2.png) [@Dacien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dacien)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/331 "2019-01-08T04:36:42Z")
The last time I linked this analysis by a Manhatten Institute economist, his character became the focus, but I’ll link it again. > ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/332 "2019-01-08T04:36:51Z")
Also, I will speak for my fellow lower middle class sorts and say that I would love to see my former customers, the 1% of the 1% of the 1%\*, get completely raped by the IRS. Won’t happen, but a brother can dream. 😃 - - We called the 1% of the 1% “gappers” and used them to fill holes in the schedule. We ignored the 1%. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/333 "2019-01-08T05:11:15Z")
> [@Dacien](#): > > The last time I linked this analysis by a Manhatten Institute economist, his character became the focus, but I’ll link it again. > > [https://twitter.com/Brian\_Riedl/status/1024109730556461057](https://twitter.com/Brian_Riedl/status/1024109730556461057) I think the focus was on his undergraduate degree in economics rather than his character, however poor it might be. I think I’m going to pass on getting my economic analysis from an undergraduate posting to Twitter, thanks anyway. Perhaps you should wonder why the only person you can find to support your ideas is an undergraduate posting to Twitter? I think there might be actual Nobel laureates in economics with opinions on the cost of “Medicare for all”. I wonder what they think? Perhaps you can tear yourself away from Twitter, research that question, and come back to us? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/334 "2019-01-08T05:57:03Z")
Describing a handful of tweets as “analysis” is being very generous indeed. Show us this guy’s in-depth analysis that consists of more than firm declarations based on take-my-word-for-it and we might take him seriously. That tweet-dump was basically worthless. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/335 "2019-01-08T06:21:36Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Since the only people she needs to keep happy at this point are those in her district, I don’t think that will be a problem. You know what just increased my happiness level? I now have Dacian on ignore. Really, I can only tolerate a certain amount of stupid verbiage on any random day, and Trump is monopolizing that. No need to add to it with Dacian’s nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/336 "2019-01-08T07:50:04Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I like how you assume that her policy proposals would be bad if actually implemented. Whereas there’s a nobel laurate economist who thinks her proposals are actually pretty good, probably because she’s been getting up-to-speed with briefings from other nobel laurate economists. Playing “cite the economist” seems like a perilous stance for an AOC fan to take. Economics is notorious for having many right wingers in the field, and those who aren’t right of center are still almost all center-left, which is still well to AOC’s right. I wish we could get some traction for a universal benefit of a HDHP (no premiums charged) and a HSA that the government would fund to the tune of a few hundred bucks per year. Everyone would have skin in the game, people would be incentivized to shop around and help “bend the cost curve”, and you wouldn’t get the kind of situation so many cities struggle with in terms of trying to reduce frivolous 911 calls from people who have Medicaid and don’t have to worry about any patient financial responsibility. Which is very likely the case for a lot of the calls described in this NPR story: > **[Doctors Make House Calls On Tablets Carried By Houston Firefighters](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/04/09/396583624/doctors-make-house-calls-on-tablets-carried-by-houston-firefighters)** > > Most calls to the Houston Fire Department are for health problems, not fires. All those medical calls strain the 911 system and make a career in firefighting seem more like a career in health care. > [@](#): > > It seems like every firefighter you ask can rattle off examples of 911 calls that didn’t come even close to being life-threatening. > “A spider bite that’s two or three weeks old,” says Jeff Jacobs. “A headache, or a laceration,” says Ashley Histand. > Alberto Vela remembers another call from a woman who said, “This medicine’s not working; now you need to take me to the hospital so I can get a different medication.” > Tyler Hooper describes those calls they shouldn’t be getting as “anything from simple colds to toothaches, stubbed toes to paper cuts.” > Hooper drives the busiest ambulance in Houston, based in a firehouse 3 miles east of the old Astrodome. Last year the rescue vehicle made more than 5,000 trips, and some of those can be pretty frustrating, he says. > > “We make a lot of runs to where it’s not an emergency situation,” he says. “And while we’re on that run, we hear another run in our territory — it could be a shooting, or a cardiac arrest — and now an ambulance is coming from farther away, and it’s extending the time for the true emergency to be taken care of.” Then there’s the unique randomized study in Oregon of Medicaid expansion. Per Wiki: > [@](#): > > Over an 18-month period following the lottery, Medicaid coverage increased emergency department use by 0.41 visits per person, a 40% increase. Researchers found increases across a range of different types of visits, including visits classified as preventable or primary care treatable, and across different subgroups. If these people knew a bill would soon come in the mail that would either decimate their HSA or have to be paid out of pocket, they’d likely think twice. OTOH, no one would ever owe so much money that it is ruinous. Medical bankruptcy would disappear, as it should. > [@dropzone](#): > > Since the only people she needs to keep happy at this point are those in her district, I don’t think that will be a problem. She has a profile that’s very high for a newbie to Congress. If she’s planning to just stay representing that district and not run statewide or nationwide, and has no aspirations to chair an important committee or become part of the Democratic leadership, then you’re right: pleasing her own constituents is all that matters, and should be a pretty easy lift. But that’s a big “if”. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/337 "2019-01-08T12:07:12Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I wish we could get some traction for a universal benefit of a HDHP (no premiums charged) and a HSA that the government would fund to the tune of a few hundred bucks per year. Part of the problem with asking people to shop around and bend the cost curve is that our system is just so goddamn complicated. I think you fixed part of that problem with a universal HDHP. Universal insurance, even an HDHP has the advantage of one set of coverages and one set of pricing for all possible medical services. I don’t have to shop around for providers because ALL providers are inherently ‘in network’ as there’s only one network, and they all charge the same prices because there’s one negotiated list of prices. In terms of ‘skin in the game’ that’s generally a terrible idea, because the real effect is to discourage people from getting care they actually need. There’s no evidence in your link that these people have Medicaid, but there is evidence that at least some of these people have a tenuous link to the medical community at large. No regular doctor, no clinic they always go to, just zero medical care until they have an ‘emergency’ and then they don’t know what to do, so they call 911. Universal HDHP and a few hundies for checkups (or fully covered preventative care, my HDHP does that) would help people like the lady with the cough form a relationship with a primary care doctor, so she can go there for questions instead of 911. I’d prefer more, but UHDHP is a better idea than just about anything floated by an actual politician in this country. ---
**Author:** ![Dacien](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dacien/32/5663_2.png) [@Dacien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dacien)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/338 "2019-01-08T13:34:52Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Describing a handful of tweets as “analysis” is being very generous indeed. Show us this guy’s in-depth analysis that consists of more than firm declarations based on take-my-word-for-it and we might take him seriously. That tweet-dump was basically worthless. Coincidentally, here’s an article out he wrote today. [https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/01/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-70-percent-tax-cannot-finance-socialism/](https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/01/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-70-percent-tax-cannot-finance-socialism/) ---
**Author:** ![Dacien](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dacien/32/5663_2.png) [@Dacien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dacien)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/339 "2019-01-08T13:37:56Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > You know what just increased my happiness level? I now have Dacian on ignore. Really, I can only tolerate a certain amount of stupid verbiage on any random day, and Trump is monopolizing that. No need to add to it with Dacian’s nonsense. Thanks for playing. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/340 "2019-01-08T13:54:27Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > When further challenged, she says that she agrees that factual accuracy is important (directly at odds with your claim) and that she always walks back comments when she finds out she is mistaken. > > Authenticity means you will make mistakes. What matters is how you deal with them. And, as far as I’m concerned, she’s still on the right side. She’s not pretending they are not mistakes, nor refusing to walk things back. She’s just spinning that in the best light, and avoiding giving extra quotes to be used against her. Did she apologize or correct her $21 trillion statement? The only thing I recall is her press secretary giving a statement along the lines of your point: Doesn’t matter if she’s wrong on facts, she’s right in her heart. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514.md?page=18)