# Ms. Ocasio-Cortez, on How to Pay for Medicare for All **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 3, 2018, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514 "2018-12-03T18:43:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/541 "2019-01-15T16:51:09Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Easy. There’s a huge, captive, sucker market to cover all those costs, and ample executive bonuses too, right here in the Land of the Free. And to pay for the adverts. All $2.8 billion worth of them. Because it’s important that you should be able to tell your doctor just what drug you reckon is the best for your erectile dysfunction, on the basis of a 30 second advert. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/542 "2019-01-15T20:48:25Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > And to pay for the adverts. All $2.8 billion worth of them. Because it’s important that you should be able to tell your doctor just what drug you reckon is the best for your erectile dysfunction, on the basis of a 30 second advert. Yeah. The Big Pharma marketing budget is bigger than their R&D budget. Plus you got the opiod makers paying some doctors tons of money for nothing to encourage them to prescribe their pills. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/543 "2019-01-15T21:25:37Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Yeah. The Big Pharma marketing budget is bigger than their R&D budget. > Plus you got the opiod makers paying some doctors tons of money for nothing to encourage them to prescribe their pills. And a good chunk of their R&D doesn’t go to new medications to treat diseases that currently have no treatment, or treat a disease better than other drugs currently do, but rather to develop a drug that does what another drug already does, but is different enough to get a patent. ---
**Author:** ![MortSahlFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@MortSahlFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MortSahlFan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/544 "2019-01-15T21:36:04Z")
We always have TRILLIONS for wars built on lies. (Ignore the corporate welfare and focus on the 3 cents extra out of your paycheck for a single mom’s baby food) ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/545 "2019-01-16T01:03:58Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > So just how do healthcare companies provide the same drugs, analysis and treatment elsewhere around the world for less in markets outside of the US? The question of how things cost different amounts in different countries is a complex one, that is really beyond the scope of this discussion. Take a look at this bit of data: > **[Nearly half the planet's population lives on less than $5.50 a day](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nearly-half-the-planets-population-lives-on-less-than-5-50-a-day-worlf-bank-reports/)** > > The good news: Fewer people live in the most extreme poverty. The bad news: 3.4 billion still scrape for basic needs > [@](#): > > Extreme poverty, defined as living on less than $1.90 a day, fell from 36 percent of the world’s population back in 1990 to 10 percent in 2015, the most recent year for available data. I frequently cite this stat to illustrate the overlooked story of how much better things are getting for the global poor. But there’s something else to be gleaned here: how much cheaper many, many things (including Maslow basics like food, clothing, and shelter) obviously must be in many parts of the world. Try living on under two bucks a day in the U.S., even in a low cost of living area like rural Mississippi. Good luck! > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Who’s asking to do it suddenly? Most of the people in this thread and who support AOC, Bernie, et al. At least that has been my impression. If there is an incrementalism in here, it is not being publicized. But go ahead: tell me how you plan to make it gradual. > [@Railer13](#): > > Exactly right. Those who would have us believe that an HSA-based plan will solve many of these problems seem to forget that it’s the individual’s money that’s primarily funding the HSA. If the employer, or the government, is contributing significantly to the HSA, that doesn’t really fly. Unless you would also say that people in France aren’t getting their care for “free” because they are paying for it in taxes? > [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > And to pay for the adverts. All $2.8 billion worth of them. Because it’s important that you should be able to tell your doctor just what drug you reckon is the best for your erectile dysfunction, on the basis of a 30 second advert. Yes, it’s obscene and sickening. Not to mention the junkets they take doctors on, the swag “pharmaceutical reps” (a job which should not exist) ply them with, etc. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > And a good chunk of their R&D doesn’t go to new medications to treat diseases that currently have no treatment, or treat a disease better than other drugs currently do, but rather to develop a drug that does what another drug already does, but is different enough to get a patent. Indeed, this is a major problem. I would like to see all pharmaceutical research be taken over by the government, or better yet by a coalition of all the governments of the world. But I wonder if some here could possibly find their way to looking at this ridiculously corrupt situation with Big Pharma and start to understand why anti-vaxxers are skeptical of vaccines for this very reason. Instead, they (and I was one of “they” when my older kids were small) are treated as the most incredibly gullible idiots imaginable. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/546 "2019-01-16T01:20:57Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > But I wonder if some here could possibly find their way to looking at this ridiculously corrupt situation with Big Pharma and start to understand why anti-vaxxers are skeptical of vaccines for this very reason. Instead, they (and I was one of “they” when my older kids were small) are treated as the most incredibly gullible idiots imaginable. I’m not really sure of the relevance of this to what’s under debate here. But Ben Goldacre put it most succinctly: > [@](#): > > pharma being shit does not mean magic beans cure cancer Do you really think that tone-policing the vaccination issue is appropriate when children’s lives are at stake? Your claim is bullshit anyway, I have never seen anyone treat parents asking genuine questions as “the most incredibly gullible idiots imaginable”. The people who get short shrift are the ignorant JAQing morons _peddling_ their antivax conspiracy theories, not the people genuinely seeking advice and information. It is _not_ appropriate to mislead parents by acting as though there is a genuine controversy on the issue when there’s not. When antivaxxers have as much evidence on their side as conspiracy theorists who claim that we didn’t land on the moon, their claims _should_ be treated with the contempt they deserve. The rule is: if you don’t want your ideas treated with contempt, find some better ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/547 "2019-01-16T06:12:28Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I wonder if some here could possibly find their way to looking at this ridiculously corrupt situation with Big Pharma and start to understand why anti-vaxxers are skeptical of vaccines for this very reason. Instead, they (and I was one of “they” when my older kids were small) are treated as the most incredibly gullible idiots imaginable. No, I don’t understand it - because pharma companies make less than 2% of their revenues from vaccines\* and could make a fuck of a lot more money instead selling drugs to reduce the damage to people who contracted these diseases. You’d have to be a complete fucking idiot (Hello, you) to look at companies who are clearly interested in making a profit, and conclude that they’d enable such a conspiracy, to the detriment of their own bottom line, when they could easily destroy it by just a single person out of the hundreds of thousands involved leaking any decent bit of evidence about the secret mind control drugs, etc, etc. \*[https://www.skepticalraptor.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Vaccine-Market-Value.pdf](https://www.skepticalraptor.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Vaccine-Market-Value.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/548 "2019-01-16T07:11:31Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > The question of how things cost different amounts in different countries is a complex one, that is really beyond the scope of this discussion. Take a look at this bit of data: > > [Nearly half the planet's population lives on less than $5.50 a day - CBS News](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nearly-half-the-planets-population-lives-on-less-than-5-50-a-day-worlf-bank-reports/) > I frequently cite this stat to illustrate the overlooked story of how much better things are getting for the global poor. But there’s something else to be gleaned here: how much cheaper many, many things (including Maslow basics like food, clothing, and shelter) obviously must be in many parts of the world. Try living on under two bucks a day in the U.S., even in a low cost of living area like rural Mississippi. Good luck!. You should be careful about pulling out that irrelevant little factoid. You’ll pull it out like it’s some startling revelation in a conversation where people are comparing costs in the US to costs in Canada\*, Australia\*\*, Switzerland\*\*\*, France\*\*\*\* Germany\*\*\*\*\*, Norway (!)\*\*\*\*\*\* etc., and people will look at you like you’re a fucking idiot. You should save it for when it actually might be relevant for the point you’re trying to make, like when people are comparing costs in the US to costs in Malaysia. - 24% higher costs than the US \*\* 12% higher costs than the US \*\*\* 63% higher costs than the US \*\*\*\* 12% higher costs than the US \*\*\*\*\* 13% higher costs than the US \*\*\*\*\*\* 80% (!) higher costs than the US All above based on the Economist Big Mac index 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/549 "2019-01-16T10:44:57Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Most of the people in this thread and who support AOC, Bernie, et al. At least that has been my impression. If there is an incrementalism in here, it is not being publicized. But go ahead: tell me how you plan to make it gradual. The argument that “Sanders, AOC, etc didn’t overtly say they wanted gradual implementation, therefore they must want it implemented abruptly” is no more sound than “they didn’t say they wanted sudden implementation, therefore they must want it implemented gradually”. Sure, in these discussions people are comparing the current US system with other systems on a “if we could wave a magic wand” basis but no one believes that an actual transition to UHC would be simple. Right now everyone is still working on the “what”; the “how” will follow. I will, however, note that both the ACA approach and the experiment in Vermont were small steps in the direction of UHC, which suggest that a gradual approach is more likely to be the approach if ever it happens. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/550 "2019-01-16T12:15:24Z")
The problem is that a lot of the excess costs of healthcare in the US is due to the number of different systems and actors. It generates a massive bureaucracy. I remember a study concluding that the yearly cost of billing in the US system was just short of 500 billion $. Higher pay in the healthcare sector is pretty small-fry in terms of increased costs. That was the problem Vermont faced: Adding yet another layer and actor to the system doesn’t realize any of the savings UHC normally entails. If you had allowed the state to use Medicare, Medicaid etc funds to set up a system the cost calculation would have looked very different and far more affordable. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/551 "2019-01-16T16:58:50Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > …But I wonder if some here could possibly find their way to looking at this ridiculously corrupt situation with Big Pharma and start to understand why anti-vaxxers are skeptical of vaccines for this very reason. Instead, they ( **and I was one of “they” when my older kids were small** ) are treated as the most incredibly gullible idiots imaginable. [my bold] The principal lesson from this digression is, of course, the precedent that SlackerInc was capable of ignoring overwhelming evidence to reach stupid and harmful conclusions. I wonder if that’s relevant to the current debate? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2019, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/552 "2019-01-17T09:35:19Z")
I’m going to put the vaccine digression into a spoiler box: > [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > You’d have to be a complete fucking idiot (Hello, you) to look at companies who are clearly interested in making a profit, and conclude that they’d enable such a conspiracy, to the detriment of their own bottom line, when they could easily destroy it by just a single person out of the hundreds of thousands involved leaking any decent bit of evidence about the secret mind control drugs, etc, etc. Whoaaa…talk about a strawman! I have never even heard of this “secret mind control” stuff. What I saw was a landscape where Big Pharma, like any other giant corporate entity, was under enormous shareholder pressure to constantly grow (the “ideology of the cancer cell”, as the saying goes) and were snaking their tentacles through vaccine standard-setting boards just as they have done elsewhere with all their junkets and pharmaceutical reps. Just coincidentally, these boards were significantly increasing the number of recommended/required vaccines. So I saw them pushing unnecessary drugs, with undesirable side effects, in every direction they could (surely you don’t deny that) and what better place to do something similar than in “vaccine schedules” that essentially make them a mandatory purchase for the entire population? (Saying they are “only two percent” of the pharmaceutical industry is silly, when Viagra is only one-tenth of one percent, and no one can seriously say that’s unimportant to Pfizer’s bottom line.) I mean, did you know that eating certain “superfoods”, or even just getting a little midday sun, reduces blood pressure as well as medication or better? You won’t hear that from Big Pharma, I assure you. > [@Riemann](#): > > SlackerInc was capable of ignoring overwhelming evidence to reach stupid and harmful conclusions. In point of fact, I did change my mind and began fully vaccinating both my children (then 3 and 5) in 2005 after seeing the “overwhelming evidence”. But most of those studies had not yet been published in 2000 when my eldest child was born. (As it happens, the two children I subsequently had in the past decade who got the full vaccine schedule starting at birth both have autism, while the older two do not; that does not change my mind about the evidence, which really woud have to be part of some vast conspiracy far beyond the ability of Big Pharma to effect.) > [@Gyrate](#): > > Sure, in these discussions people are comparing the current US system with other systems on a “if we could wave a magic wand” basis but no one believes that an actual transition to UHC would be simple. You may not, and good for you. But a lot of people have not researched this much at all, and are willing to accept the “wave a magic wand” rhetoric at face value from someone they admire like AOC. So she ought to stop doing that, and so should the people in this thread and those like them across the country. > [@Grim\_Render](#): > > That was the problem Vermont faced: Adding yet another layer and actor to the system doesn’t realize any of the savings UHC normally entails. If you had allowed the state to use Medicare, Medicaid etc funds to set up a system the cost calculation would have looked very different and far more affordable. Are you saying they should have set up a state equivalent of Britain’s NHS? First of all, that is the exception rather than the rule even among UHC countries. It does seem to work well for the UK, and certainly in theory is the best way to streamline everything and keep administrative costs down. BUT it strikes me as essentially impossible to imagine that something like this could be created in the U.S., due to political and economic hurdles. And if it somehow overcame those, I don’t believe most people would culturally adjust well to it, no matter how well it worked statistically speaking. I mean, have you been to a VA hospital? That’s the American equivalent. When my eldest was born, I had to go through the tunnel from the regular hospital to the VA hospital to get film for my camera (quaint, I know) for some reason. The hospital he was born in had works of art everywhere, flowers, an airy lobby, etc. On the other side of the tunnel, it was like someone was making a movie about a Stalinist gulag. It wasn’t technically dirty (although the paint job was chipped and faded), and everything looked functional enough, but to call it “drab” would be an incredible understatement. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2019, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/553 "2019-01-17T10:15:47Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > You may not, and good for you. But a lot of people have not researched this much at all, and are willing to accept the “wave a magic wand” rhetoric at face value from someone they admire like AOC. So she ought to stop doing that, and so should the people in this thread and those like them across the country. But is she doing that? Because it looks to me like you’re building…what’s the word? Oh yes…a strawman here. At this point in the conversation it’s all about aspirations and broad policies and goals. I keep seeing people extrapolating from AOC saying “We should have UHC and here are some basic ideas on how it might be funded” to “AOC hasn’t given us any detail therefore she doesn’t know what she’s talking about” while pointedly ignoring that we’re not remotely at the fine detail stage. (Actually, mostly what I see from AOC opponents is “OMG SOCIALISM!!! VENEZUELA!!!” but fortunately such arguments are rare and short-lived on this messageboard.) ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2019, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/554 "2019-01-17T10:31:21Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Are you saying they should have set up a state equivalent of Britain’s NHS? Its one option. Beveridge-type systems seems to be the most effective in terms of healthcare per dollar in developed nations. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > First of all, that is the exception rather than the rule even among UHC countries. I am curious about the numbers behind that assertion? > [@SlackerInc](#): > > It does seem to work well for the UK, and certainly in theory is the best way to streamline everything and keep administrative costs down. > > BUT it strikes me as essentially impossible to imagine that something like this could be created in the U.S., due to political and economic hurdles. And if it somehow overcame those, I don’t believe most people would culturally adjust well to it, no matter how well it worked statistically speaking. I think your impression of the US capability to accomplish stuff is pretty low. Much lower than most peoples. A health care system that covers everyone is something everyone else in the developed world has managed to set up, and a number of nations not generally considered part of the developed world. I don’t really think the US get-stuff-done ability is that much worse than every other peer nation. I mean for one thing if your starting assumption is that the US are fundamentally incapable of stuff everyone else does as a matter of course, it gets hard to have a response to anything. Its not a paradigm you can base any actions on. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > I mean, have you been to a VA hospital? That’s the American equivalent. When my eldest was born, I had to go through the tunnel from the regular hospital to the VA hospital to get film for my camera (quaint, I know) for some reason. The hospital he was born in had works of art everywhere, flowers, an airy lobby, etc. On the other side of the tunnel, it was like someone was making a movie about a Stalinist gulag. It wasn’t technically dirty (although the paint job was chipped and faded), and everything looked functional enough, but to call it “drab” would be an incredible understatement. “Drab” does not actually reduce outcomes in any measurable way. I also think it is far preferable having only the emergency room for a health response. Some of them are pretty drab too. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2019, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/555 "2019-01-17T13:57:11Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > You may not, and good for you. But a lot of people have not researched this much at all, and are willing to accept the “wave a magic wand” rhetoric at face value from someone they admire like AOC. Please provide a quote or two that you choose to interpret that way. > [@](#): > > BUT it strikes me as essentially impossible to imagine that something like this could be created in the U.S., due to political and economic hurdles. And if it somehow overcame those, I don’t believe most people would culturally adjust well to it, no matter how well it worked statistically speaking. Now _there’s_ the Can Do spirit that made America great. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > I mean, have you been to a VA hospital? That’s the American equivalent. A hospital that accepts Medicare would be a better equivalent. Since, well, we’re discussing expanding eligibility for Medicare, nothing more. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2019, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/556 "2019-01-17T14:09:16Z")
Elvis, pay closer attention. Grim Render sparked a subtopic discussion of nationalizing all parts of the entire medical system as the UK has. The analogue to that in the U.S. is definitely the VA. Pressed for time ATM. Will respond to some other points/questions later. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2019, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/557 "2019-01-17T14:09:34Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > it was like someone was making a movie about a Stalinist gulag. It wasn’t technically dirty (although the paint job was chipped and faded), and everything looked functional enough, but to call it “drab” would be an incredible understatement. Is this what you think hospitals in London or Berlin look like? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2019, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/558 "2019-01-17T14:12:41Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > But a lot of people have not researched this much at all, and are willing to accept the “wave a magic wand” rhetoric at face value from someone they admire like AOC. It does not seem so much like “waving a wand” rhetoric as gang rape rhetoric [(cite)](https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ocasio-cortez-vows-to-run-train-on-progressive-agenda-in-bizarre-turn-of-phrase). That’s more difficult to admire. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2019, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/559 "2019-01-17T14:34:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It does not seem so much like “waving a wand” rhetoric as gang rape rhetoric [(cite)](https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ocasio-cortez-vows-to-run-train-on-progressive-agenda-in-bizarre-turn-of-phrase). That’s more difficult to admire. Bravo, you found something inappropriate spoken by a 29 year old freshman representative. Gee whiz, if only a Republican would say something inappropriate, I could take you down with a BSAB, but alas, you guys never say anything racist, or sexist, or anything, you’re pure as the driven snow. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2019, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/560 "2019-01-17T14:39:02Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Elvis, pay closer attention. Grim Render sparked a subtopic discussion of nationalizing all parts of the entire medical system as the UK has. The analogue to that in the U.S. is definitely the VA. And that was a strawman hijack. Can we get back to real proposals, please? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514.md?page=29)