# Ms. Pronunciation. Is it just me? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 15, 2024, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-pronunciation-is-it-just-me/998884 "2024-03-15T18:37:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2024, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-pronunciation-is-it-just-me/998884/1 "2024-03-15T18:37:13Z")
Several years ago the comic book character Ms. Marvel appeared in the Avengers cartoon. Since then every time they say her name it sounds like “Miss”. I thought it was supposed to be pronounced “Miz”. Am I wrong? Can anyone else hear it? Bueller? ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2024, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-pronunciation-is-it-just-me/998884/2 "2024-03-15T19:47:14Z")
Ms. has always been pronounced Miz, and not Miss, as far as I know. If something has changed either I haven’t been notified, or I missed the memo. ---
**Author:** ![Hatchie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hatchie/32/3983_2.png) [@Hatchie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hatchie)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2024, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-pronunciation-is-it-just-me/998884/3 "2024-03-15T19:56:08Z")
Ms. is one of those coinings that filled a need. As far as I know it doesn’t stand for anything, and the pronunciation “miz” is only so it doesn’t get confused with “Miss” when spoken. What with the internet and all the language pedants that lurk here, it probably wouldn’t have caught on if proposed today - but too late to try and fix it now. I mean, I do understand why something had to be done. (Do they still use “Mademoiselle” in France, or “Senorita” in Spain?) ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2024, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-pronunciation-is-it-just-me/998884/4 "2024-03-15T20:22:34Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > Ms. has always been pronounced Miz, and not Miss, as far as I know. If something has changed either I haven’t been notified, or I missed the memo. Seconded. The entire point was to avoid having to say either Miss or Mrs. Pronouncing it like either of them would have defeated the purpose. (How does one punctuate a sentence that ends with an abbreviation, anyway?) Having said that: I’ve never listened to the cartoon, so I don’t know whether I’d think they’re mispronouncing Ms. or not. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2024, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-pronunciation-is-it-just-me/998884/5 "2024-03-15T20:41:05Z")
I think it may just be the same phenomena I hear in other words ending in /z/, where it gets devoiced word finally. This is especially true if it is followed by an unvoiced consonant, e.g. “Ms Parnell.” It is a bit weird with Ms. Marvel, though. I think it might also be because “mizz” is also a common pronunciation of “Mrs” (in less formal contexts), and a key part of Ms. Marvel from the beginning was to say she is **not** married to Captain Marvel. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2024, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-pronunciation-is-it-just-me/998884/6 "2024-03-15T21:25:55Z")
> [@Hatchie](#): > > Ms. is one of those coinings that filled a need. As far as I know it doesn’t stand for anything, and the pronunciation “miz” is only so it doesn’t get confused with “Miss” when spoken. My understanding is that Mrs, Miss and Ms stood for mistress for a very long time. ---
**Author:** ![Jaycat.again](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaycat.again/32/11525_2.png) [@Jaycat.again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaycat.again)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2024, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-pronunciation-is-it-just-me/998884/7 "2024-03-15T21:42:37Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > (How does one punctuate a sentence that ends with an abbreviation, anyway?) With a period. Unless it’s a question. Then you use a question mark. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2024, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-pronunciation-is-it-just-me/998884/8 "2024-03-15T22:18:51Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Having said that: I’ve never listened to the cartoon, so I don’t know whether I’d think they’re mispronouncing Ms. or not. I found a clip somewhere, and I would say it’s obviously mispronounced in that clip , except that I know there are accents where Mrs., Miss, and Ms. are all pronounced sort of the same. I remember a thread where someone was talking about older married women being offended to be addressed as Ms. - and then it turned out that he pronounced “Ms.” exactly the same as he pronounced “Miss”. Don’t now if that was an accent of just that person, though. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2024, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-pronunciation-is-it-just-me/998884/9 "2024-03-15T22:37:39Z")
> [@Hatchie](#): > > (Do they still use “Mademoiselle” in France, or “Senorita” in Spain?) I don’t know about French and Spanish, but at least “Fräulein” in German has fallen totally out of fashion in my lifetime (maybe even before, in some circles, I was born in 1968). ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2024, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-pronunciation-is-it-just-me/998884/10 "2024-03-15T22:56:27Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > My understanding is that Mrs, Miss and Ms stood for mistress for a very long time. They still do; what else would they stand for? However, to write out or pronounce “mistress” has been considered “quaint and pendantick” for at least a couple of hundred years. > [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > I don’t know about French and Spanish, but at least “Fräulein” in German has fallen totally out of fashion in my lifetime (maybe even before, in some circles, I was born in 1968). Such titles no longer appear in official documents, as far as I am aware, but simply suppressing “mademoiselle” hardly solves the problem of “official” titles. The revolutionaries at least got something right with their citoyen, tovarisch, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2024, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-pronunciation-is-it-just-me/998884/11 "2024-03-15T23:03:27Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > > > My understanding is that Mrs, Miss and Ms stood for mistress for a very long time. > > They still do; what else would they stand for? However, to write out or pronounce “mistress” has been considered “quaint and pendantick” for at least a couple of hundred years. I phrased that poorly. Upthread someone suggested that Ms was some sort of new coining rather than something that goes back centuries. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2024, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-pronunciation-is-it-just-me/998884/12 "2024-03-15T23:08:36Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Such titles no longer appear in official documents, as far as I am aware, but simply suppressing “mademoiselle” hardly solves the problem of “official” titles. The revolutionaries at least got something right with their citoyen, tovarisch, etc. But it’s not like the official document use of “Fräulein” was abandoned before the colloquial use of the word, it was just the other way around. Young unmarried women wanted to be respected and insisted on being called “Frau XY”, and the bureaucrats just followed suit a few years later after the public had already abandoned that address. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2024, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-pronunciation-is-it-just-me/998884/13 "2024-03-16T00:31:56Z")
> [@Jaycat.again](#): > > > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > > (How does one punctuate a sentence that ends with an abbreviation, anyway?) > > With a period. Unless it’s a question. Then you use a question mark. But if it ends with an abbreviation – the abbreviation ends with a period. So, two periods, or one? Neither looks right to me. > [@doreen](#): > > and then it turned out that he pronounced “Ms.” exactly the same as he pronounced “Miss”. Don’t now if that was an accent of just that person, though. I think some people pronounce Mrs. just like they pronounce Ms. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Upthread someone suggested that Ms was some sort of new coining rather than something that goes back centuries. It wasn’t in common use in much of the 20th century in the USA, though. I was born in 1951 and the first time I heard or saw it was in Ms. Magazine in 1971. (Which I immediately glommed onto; but then didn’t know how to ask for the next issue, because I didn’t know how to pronounce it.) ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2024, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-pronunciation-is-it-just-me/998884/14 "2024-03-16T01:24:05Z")
Huuuuge comic book reader here. It’s _always_ been “Mizz”… without much of an i in there, more like “Mzz”. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2024, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-pronunciation-is-it-just-me/998884/15 "2024-03-16T01:41:02Z")
I’m 47 and I don’t think I’ve ever referred to a woman as mizz before. Yeah, that means I’ve always used miss. Even as a kid, if a teacher was unmarried she was Miss not Mizz . ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2024, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-pronunciation-is-it-just-me/998884/16 "2024-03-16T02:00:12Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I think some people pronounce Mrs. just like they pronounce Ms. > > > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > > > Upthread someone suggested that Ms was some sort of new coining rather than something that goes back centuries. > > It wasn’t in common use in much of the 20th century in the USA, though. I was born in 1951 and the first time I heard or saw it was in Ms. Magazine in 1971. (Which I immediately glommed onto; but then didn’t know how to ask for the next issue, because I didn’t know how to pronounce it.) The _OED_ quotes someone in Philadelphia in 1952 calling the abbreviation ‘Ms.’ a “modern style”; the same dictionary also documents O. Henry using ‘Miz’ in 1907. > [@Odesio](#): > > I’m 47 and I don’t think I’ve ever referred to a woman as mizz before. Yeah, that means I’ve always used miss. Even as a kid, if a teacher was unmarried she was Miss not Mizz . miz is “southern U.S.” for a married or unmarried woman, according to the OED: > A married woman is not addressed as Missis by the mountaineers, but as Mistress when they speak formally, and as Mis’ or Miz’ for a contraction. [_Our Southern Highlanders,_ 1913.] ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2024, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-pronunciation-is-it-just-me/998884/17 "2024-03-16T02:05:35Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > [@Jaycat.again](#): > > > > > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > > > > (How does one punctuate a sentence that ends with an abbreviation, anyway?) ⁢ > > > > With a period. Unless it’s a question. Then you use a question mark. ⁢ > > But if it ends with an abbreviation – the abbreviation ends with a period. So, two periods, or one? Neither looks right to me. One period. It’s something I’ve noticed in writing. The most common is ending the sentence with the word etc. I never see a second period. Heck, I don’t think you really ever see two periods. It’s either one, three, or four. That said, you do include a period before a question mark or exclamation point. That I didn’t remember for sure, but I looked it up and all of the top 5 Google results said to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2024, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-pronunciation-is-it-just-me/998884/18 "2024-03-16T02:06:38Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > miz is “southern U.S.” for a married or unmarried woman, according to the OED: Weird. I was in Texas, which some argue really isn’t the South, and now in Arkansas, and I never hear miz. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2024, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-pronunciation-is-it-just-me/998884/19 "2024-03-16T02:13:06Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Weird. I was in Texas, which some argue really isn’t the South, and now in Arkansas, and I never hear miz. ⁢ Huh. I’m in Arkansas, and I hear “miz” all the time. It’s just not ever written as “Ms” but “Mrs.” Similarly, “miss” can be used for married women if it’s their firstname. Like my mom was Miss Betty\* to her kids. When written down, it would be Mrs. Betty Lastname, though. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2024, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-pronunciation-is-it-just-me/998884/20 "2024-03-16T02:14:23Z")
To be fair, the book that particular quote is from was about the Southern Appalachians, not Texas or Arkansas or thereabouts. Never lived there myself. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-pronunciation-is-it-just-me/998884.md?page=2)