# Ms. vs. Miss **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 8, 2009, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381 "2009-07-08T23:59:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/41 "2009-07-09T15:19:37Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > My Dad was all up in arms about the whole “Ms.” thing in the seventies. He claimed it kept him from receiving much needed information about the women he worked with. > > Why a married man would need that information I can’t imagine. . . Which is why I use Ms. It no longer applies for “in person” meetings, since I wear a wedding ring, but I’ve only been married for 12 years. For mail purposes, I like Ms. just fine. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/42 "2009-07-09T15:25:04Z")
> [@winterhawk11](#): > > Actually, I believe the proper spelling for this would be “Madame” (plural: Mesdames) rather than “Madam”…unless you’re talking about a particular type of businesswoman, anyway. 😃 Our Indian crew addresses women as “madame”, and my boss used to get all bent out of shape, because she associates the Floozy version of madame with that title. Duh. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/43 "2009-07-09T15:28:39Z")
> [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](#): > > Cite? I was under the impression that, unlike “Mr.” and “Mrs.,” “Ms.” is not an abbreviation of anything. [This crappy dictionary](http://www.answers.com/topic/ms-2) at least seems to support the idea that it was a invented blend of “Miss” and “Mrs.” That link (points to the underlined “Ms.”) was my cite. See footnotes in the text for the reference to use starting in the 1700s for reference to women regardless of marital status, cited from a Ms. Manners book and from Daniel Baron’s book _Grammar and Gender_. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/44 "2009-07-09T15:42:06Z")
> [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](#): > > Cite? I was under the impression that, unlike “Mr.” and “Mrs.,” “Ms.” is not an abbreviation of anything. [This crappy dictionary](http://www.answers.com/topic/ms-2) at least seems to support the idea that it was a invented blend of “Miss” and “Mrs.” Miss Manners’ Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior - page 103 ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/45 "2009-07-09T15:56:17Z")
> [@winterhawk11](#): > > Actually, I believe the proper spelling for this would be “Madame” (plural: Mesdames) rather than “Madam”…unless you’re talking about a particular type of businesswoman, anyway. 😃 Funny but wrong. The usage of Madam Chairwoman in formal settings lingers on and it definitely does not have the “e” on the end. Ferret Handler, even the body of the Wikipedia page provides no support for the contention that Ms. is a contraction of Mistress. It was never mentioned as such in the period of introduction, which I remember quite well. In fact, I remember arguments over whether it should take a period or not. A period made it a closer analogue of Mr. and Mrs. but the lack of a period signaled that it was not an abbreviation the way the other two were. You couldn’t even have that argument if Ms. were truly a formation from Mistress. I note that the use of the period won out, but that was because it was the natural response of people to add on so it won by weight of popular usage. But that’s all it means. ---
**Author:** ![runcible\_spoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc29f/32.png) [@runcible\_spoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runcible_spoon)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/46 "2009-07-09T15:57:56Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > I still find that “Miss” is used as an address instead of “Ms.” or even “Mrs.” After all, you never (in the USA) hear anyone say, “Excuse me, missus” or “Excuse me, Ms.” It’s “Excuse me, miss.” It complements “Excuse me, sir.” The use of “Excuse me, mister,” seems so Leave-it-to-Beaverish. For the record, I say ‘mister’ from time to time. I’ve always been a little unclear on the whole ms.-miss-mrs. thing. Mostly because the way I’d normally pronounce all three is really, really close, unless I’m trying to enunciate more. The first ‘s’ is always unvoiced, and then there’s a sort of half-indication that there’s going to be a second ‘s’, as in ‘missus’, but I stop before actually pronouncing it. Plus, being from a notably hippie town on the West coast, the only time I ever used them was for teachers, and then only grade school. Professors just get names, no titles. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/47 "2009-07-09T16:07:56Z")
When I have to send a business letter and don’t know who will be reading it I always address it as: Dear Sir or Madame. ---
**Author:** ![bit24sh0cker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@bit24sh0cker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bit24sh0cker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/48 "2009-07-09T16:16:24Z")
Wow - what a great and informative discussion; I had no idea. I think I’m going to get that book about the lies your teacher told you. Also, you can address letters as such “To Whom It May concern” and hope that someone gives a darn! ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/49 "2009-07-09T16:19:47Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > That link (points to the underlined “Ms.”) was my cite. See footnotes in the text for the reference to use starting in the 1700s for reference to women regardless of marital status, cited from a Ms. Manners book and from Daniel Baron’s book _Grammar and Gender_. The same Wikipedia article also says > [@](#): > > The modern use of Ms. in preference to the traditional appellations was conceived by Sheila Michaels in 1961, upon seeing what might have been a typographical error on a copy of News & Letters.[9] Address-o-graph plates were difficult to repair, and small, poor groups would not waste resources to correct minor mistakes. Michaels’ roommate, Mary Hamilton (Congress of Racial Equality’s first female Field Secretary in the South), had spoken to the group in Detroit and been mailed a copy of their newsletter. Michaels “was looking for a title for a woman who did not ‘belong’ to a man.”[10] She knew the separation of Miss and Mrs. had been recent, but one could not suggest that women call themselves Mistress with its louche connotations. Her efforts to promote use of a new honorific were ignored in the Civil Rights era, and seven years later in the nascent Women’s Movement. Around 1971, in a lull during a WBAI-radio interview with The Feminists group, Michaels suggested the use of Ms. (having chosen a pronunciation current for both in Missouri, her home). A friend of Gloria Steinem heard the interview and suggested it as a title for her new magazine, Ms. In any case, I am inclined to believe the OED in cases of etymology: [QUOTE=Oxford English Dictionary] [An orthographic and phonetic blend of MRS n. and MISS n.2 Compare MIZZ n. The pronunciation with final /-z/ would appear to have arisen as a result of deliberate attempts to distinguish between this word and MISS n.2; compare MIZZ n., and perhaps also MIZ n.1] [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/50 "2009-07-09T16:20:50Z")
[QUOTE=bit24sh0cker] Also, you can address letters as such “To Whom It May concern” [/quote] Whenever I do this, I’m always tempted to do something I saw (I think) in “Peanuts” many many years ago: To Whom It May Concern: Dear Whom, 😃 ---
**Author:** ![TheMadEngineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cc9497/32.png) [@TheMadEngineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheMadEngineer)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/51 "2009-07-09T16:31:02Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’m 37 and knew about this, and to be honest am surprised anyone doesn’t. > > Out of curiosity, where are you located? Maybe it’s more common on some regions than others. I’m in Connecticut. Though I have to say I have had about 0 need to use Ms. in any real context - I’m going into my third year of college and through my pre-college education, female teachers were mostly Mrs., and if not they were Miss. I had always assumed Ms. was an abreviation of Miss in the same way Mr. is of Mister, Dr. is of Doctor, and Mrs. is of Misses. To me, the only real gripe I have with Ms. is to me it sounds ugly and doesn’t add anything to the flow of the language. But that’s just my personal philological preference - I enjoy having my language flow and sound pretty (Further proof if this is the fact that I studied French for six years \>.\> ), so the use of a z sound just grates on me unless the name following the word sounds good with “Mizz”. ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/52 "2009-07-09T17:26:44Z")
I’ve been living with my SO for over 10 years, and Ms. is my prefered title. I’m not married, so Mrs. doesn’t apply, yet I’m not single in the “not attached” sense. That, and usually if they have to ask my marital status, it’s none of their business. Growing up in the '70s and '80s. I remember the push to use Ms. and the confusion (and oddly enough, anger) it caused for some people. ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/53 "2009-07-09T17:31:31Z")
> [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](#): > > Growing up in the '70s and '80s. I remember the push to use Ms. and the confusion (and oddly enough, anger) it caused for some people. Yeah, that’s the part that I don’t get. What’s to get angry about? Does anyone really have a \*right \*to know a woman’s marital status (particularly if no similar right is expected for men?) I can understand how some women might not like the title and might not want to use it (that’s what choice is all about) but not why anybody it doesn’t directly affect would be angry about it. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/54 "2009-07-09T17:46:10Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > In my experience, “Ms” is usually only used by what used to be known as spinsters. Your experience is not representative. ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/55 "2009-07-09T17:51:50Z")
> [@liberty3701](#): > > I’m a young married woman who kept her maiden name. I use Ms., and I know I’m not alone in that. You’re absolutely right - I do the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![FalconFinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@FalconFinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FalconFinder)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/56 "2009-07-09T18:23:47Z")
I would be considered a “spinster” (now there’s an annoying term) and I absolutely HATE the whole “Ms” thing. To me it sounds much more degrading than “Miss.” Maybe it’s because of how it was forced on the public back in the 70’s. Women who used it then always corrected people in a haughty tone and gave it a negative connotation to me. When I was a kid, I never heard the explanation for the terms and I always thought that Mr = Man, Miss = never married woman, Mrs. = Married woman, and Ms. = Divorced woman. Frankly, I never understood why anyone gave a rat’s ass about the titles to begin with…but, if forced to use a title, I would actually prefer Miss for being single. It just sounds friendlier to me. ---
**Author:** ![whiterabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/cab0a1/32.png) [@whiterabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whiterabbit)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/57 "2009-07-09T18:39:11Z")
I am 33 and never married. Miss makes me feel about eight years old. My elderly grandma still sends mail to Miss, but given her age, I don’t mind. Much. Ms seems perfectly natural to me. ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/58 "2009-07-09T19:11:18Z")
> [@FalconFinder](#): > > I would be considered a “spinster” (now there’s an annoying term) No kidding. About 15 years ago, we bought our first home. I was in my late 20s. Imagine my dismay when I was given the mortgage paper work to sign, and my SO was “SO - bachelor” and I was “ToC - spinster”. Yep, into the 90s, that was still the term used by our bank in Chicago. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/59 "2009-07-09T19:25:36Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > I thought the standard pronunciation was “məz”, not “miz”. Is that a joke? I’ve never heard it pronounced that way. > [@Colophon](#): > > In my experience, “Ms” is usually only used by what used to be known as spinsters. You need more experience. > [@](#): > > I’m sure it’s a very useful word, but it sets my teeth on edge for this reason. Do you also get annoyed when women asked not to be referred to as girls? > [@CookingWithGas](#): > > This tradition seems to be fading as people come more to associate these as tokens of age or dating availability rather than respect, and as people more and more refuse to age gracefully. Back in high school and college when I worked in a grocery store and then various coffee shops, I addressed all male customers as “sir” and all female customers as “ma’am.” You should have seen some of the middle-aged women–“Oh, I’m not old enough to be a MA’AM.” :rolleyes: My reply was always that I call the eight-year-old girls who come in to buy gum “ma’am,” too. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/60 "2009-07-09T19:50:35Z")
The only “Family Circus” cartoon I ever found amusing–way back in the 70’s–was one where Dolly explained to Jeffy, “You call a lady ‘Mrs.’ if she’s married, ‘Miss’ if she’s not married, and ‘Ms.’ if it’s a secret”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381.md?page=4)