# Ms. vs. Miss **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 8, 2009, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381 "2009-07-08T23:59:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/81 "2009-07-10T15:57:19Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > (That’s what Mrs. is short for, btw - Mistress, not Misses. Married women don’t suddenly become plural. :D) Except in Utah. (I’ll be here all night. Please tip your server.) ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/82 "2009-07-10T16:02:14Z")
> [@whiterabbit](#): > > I am 33 and never married. Miss makes me feel about eight years old. My elderly grandma still sends mail to Miss, but given her age, I don’t mind. Much. > > Ms seems perfectly natural to me. I remember when the Ms Miss Mrs thing was a big deal, some married and single women would flip at the honorific Ms…"I’m a Mrs., not a Ms., i worked for years to earn this husband and I’m proud of it…while others thought anything but Ms. was disgustingly sexist. Lately though I feel that we are settling in to the following conventions Mrs – adult married female, used in conjunction with husband’s first name, usually socially Mr and Mrs Bob Jones Mrs Bob Jones Ms. adult female, single or married, often used in business Ms. Anne Jones Miss Female child or young teenager Miss Anne Jones Master Male child or young teenager Master Bob Jones These last two I only see in formal situations, otherwise it’s Bob or Anne. Note this is for honorifics, saying “Excuse me, Miss” is different ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/83 "2009-07-10T16:41:33Z")
I am now wondering whether we should pronounce ‘Mr’ as ‘murr’. Mizz and Murr… 🙂 > [@bit24sh0cker](#): > > Also, you can address letters as such “To Whom It May concern” and hope that someone gives a darn! As Cecil said, that sounds like you tied your letter to a rock and threw it in over the wall. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/84 "2009-07-10T16:45:39Z")
> [@Sound Mind](#): > > Lately though I feel that we are settling in to the following conventions > > Mrs – adult married female, used in conjunction with husband’s first name, usually socially > > Mr and Mrs Bob Jones > Mrs Bob Jones Now, this one annoys me. Not the use of ‘Mrs’ in this situation, but the use of the husband’s _personal_ name when addressing the wife. Shouldn’t it be ‘Mrs Jane Jones’? Or are we simply saying that this woman is ‘the husband of Bob Jones’, not ‘Jane Jones, who happens to be married to Bob’? Wouldn’t the shared last name be sufficient to indicate the marriage? [edit] I just reread **Hilarity** ’s post, and I’m kind of split on the idea. I agree that ‘Mrs Bob Jones’ would work; I just don’t think it should be the default. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/85 "2009-07-10T16:59:00Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > I agree that ‘Mrs Bob Jones’ would work; I just don’t think it should be the default. I don’t think that **Sound Mind** is saying that it’s the default, but rather giving a list of usages and their meanings. ---
**Author:** ![TheMadEngineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cc9497/32.png) [@TheMadEngineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheMadEngineer)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/86 "2009-07-10T17:10:13Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I find it completely unfathomable that anyone living in an English-speaking country doesn’t know that Ms and Miss are different. > > Not knowing the origins of the words is understandable, but did it never occur to you that four letter words like Miss don’t usually get abbreviated at all? Didn’t you ever wonder why it was sometimes abbreviated and sometimes not? It’s not as if you ever see Mister or Mistress written in full before someone’s name. > > (That’s what Mrs. is short for, btw - Mistress, not Misses. Married women don’t suddenly become plural. :D) > > I mean, you asked on here, so it’s not as if you’re not a curious person, so it’s really odd that you missed this piece of knowledge. It’d be like not knowing that Austria and Australia are different countries, and thinking the former was just a shortening. While I do have to say that I don’t appreciate your (Hopefully uninentional) snide tone with regards to a problem of ignorance rather than intelligence, I have to remind you that in my entire life I’ve never been in a situation where the distinction was important, nor in a situation where I’ve been called out on it, nor has this particular distinction ever been taught to me in school… elementary education is unfortunately very lacking in a lot of things, or at least it was when I was there. So the tone of your post as “Well why shouldn’t it have just _occurred_ to you?” seems lacking in understanding of the fact that for my entire life this has been a complete non-issue (most females in my life are addressed by either first name, Mrs., Professor, or Dr.) and thus has not been something I’ve had any time or care to think about. That being said, the only reason I posted this thread was for clarification on the issue specifically _because_ I was ignorant of the difference and this was only made apparent to me because someone called me out on it. ---
**Author:** ![TheMadEngineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cc9497/32.png) [@TheMadEngineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheMadEngineer)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/87 "2009-07-10T17:24:24Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > (That’s what Mrs. is short for, btw - Mistress, not Misses. Married women don’t suddenly become plural. :D) Sorry for the double-post but I had to read more carefully to catch this. All of your teachers presumably had their names spelled “Mrs. teachersuchandsuch”, but did you or any other children call her “Mistress”? I should certainly hope not - children shouldn’t be getting lessons in BDSM (from their grade school teachers or anyone else, for that matter). Mrs. now sounds like “misses”. You’re right, etymologically, that Mrs. is a contraction of Mistress, but the word Mrs. is now pronounced Misses. My spelling it as “misses” rather than “missus” or “missis” is a reflection of the way the word is pronounced in a Connecticut dialect. From Wikipedia: > [@](#): > > “Mrs” originated as a contraction of the honorific “Mistress”, the feminine of “Mister” or “Master”, which was originally applied to both married and unmarried women. The split into “Mrs” for married women and “Miss” for unmarried women began during the 17th century [1][2] It has become rare for Mrs to be written out and it lacks a standard phonetic spelling. In literature it may appear as “missus” or “missis” in dialogue, and a variant in the works of Thomas Hardy and others is “Mis’ess”, reflecting its etymology. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/88 "2009-07-10T17:28:56Z")
> [@TheMadEngineer](#): > > While I do have to say that I don’t appreciate your (Hopefully uninentional) snide tone with regards to a problem of ignorance rather than intelligence, I have to remind you that in my entire life I’ve never been in a situation where the distinction was important, nor in a situation where I’ve been called out on it, nor has this particular distinction ever been taught to me in school… elementary education is unfortunately very lacking in a lot of things, or at least it was when I was there. > > So the tone of your post as “Well why shouldn’t it have just _occurred_ to you?” seems lacking in understanding of the fact that for my entire life this has been a complete non-issue (most females in my life are addressed by either first name, Mrs., Professor, or Dr.) and thus has not been something I’ve had any time or care to think about. That being said, the only reason I posted this thread was for clarification on the issue specifically _because_ I was ignorant of the difference and this was only made apparent to me because someone called me out on it. And I find it bizarre to the point of impossibility that you really live in a world where you’ve never met anyone titled Ms. However, I don’t actually think you’re lying, so I’m just left utterly bewildered. Imagine if I’d said that I’d never heard of apples despite growing up in a country where there are plenty. Wouldn’t that seem weird to you? This gap in your knowledge is approaching that level of weirdness. Even though it’s not your fault, it’s still really, really, really odd. ---
**Author:** ![Risha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@Risha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Risha)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/89 "2009-07-10T17:32:59Z")
> [@Sound Mind](#): > > Mrs – adult married female, used in conjunction with husband’s first name, usually socially > > Mr and Mrs Bob Jones > Mrs Bob Jones A small correction - the vast majority of younger women I know would never use the husband’s given name, but would use the “Mrs. Mary Jones” construction instead. I’ve personally only ever seen much older women use your version (as in, seniors). YMMV, of course. There’s nothing wrong, of course, etiquette-wise, with the Mrs. Bob Jones construction. But it feels to me like a hold over from the “woman as appendage to man” days. I suspect that I’m not alone with that. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/90 "2009-07-10T17:35:04Z")
> [@TheMadEngineer](#): > > Sorry for the double-post but I had to read more carefully to catch this. All of your teachers presumably had their names spelled “Mrs. teachersuchandsuch”, but did you or any other children call her “Mistress”? I should certainly hope not - children shouldn’t be getting lessons in BDSM (from their grade school teachers or anyone else, for that matter). Mrs. now sounds like “misses”. You’re right, etymologically, that Mrs. is a contraction of Mistress, but the word Mrs. is now pronounced Misses. My spelling it as “misses” rather than “missus” or “missis” is a reflection of the way the word is pronounced in a Connecticut dialect. > > From Wikipedia: Actually, my teachers were an even split between Mrs, Miss and Ms. In practice, we called them Miss/Mrs/Ms Whatever when using their full name, but _always_ miss when addressing them without their name, which we did more often. ‘Miss, what does this mean? Miss, miss, he hit me!’ You claimed that Mrs was short for Misses, which I corrected. The abbreviation is pronounced misses (would you pronounce missus and missis differently to misses, then?), but it’s still short for mistress. The other reason I corrected you was because it was funny. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ludy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Ludy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludy)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/91 "2009-07-10T18:01:09Z")
I am a 28 year old married woman who goes by Ms and kept her maiden name. I absolutely hate the “Mrs John Smith” title and made sure at my wedding that it was not used. I am more than a appendage of my husband, and should not be referred to as such. I wouldn’t except him to want to be called Mr Jane Jones and I expect the same courtesy. Basically my marrital status is of no consiquence to anyone but my husband, so what does it matter if a stranger knows or not? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/92 "2009-07-10T18:16:23Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > And I find it bizarre to the point of impossibility that you really live in a world where you’ve never met anyone titled Ms. However, I don’t actually think you’re lying, so I’m just left utterly bewildered. > > Imagine if I’d said that I’d never heard of apples despite growing up in a country where there are plenty. Wouldn’t that seem weird to you? This gap in your knowledge is approaching that level of weirdness. Even though it’s not your fault, it’s still really, really, really odd. There’s always one. [Restaurant Stories- Funny & True Stories | NotAlwaysRight.com](http://notalwaysright.com/tag/restaurant) > [@](#): > > (I’m a cashier at a cafe-style restaurant.) > > Me: “Can I help you sir?” > > Customer: “Sure, I’d like the turkey sandwich with everything on it.” > > Me: “Okay, and what side would you like with that: chips, bread, or an apple?” > > Customer: “An apple? What’s an apple?” > > Me: “…a red fruit.” > > Customer: “Oh! I’ll take that.” ---
**Author:** ![TheMadEngineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cc9497/32.png) [@TheMadEngineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheMadEngineer)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/93 "2009-07-10T18:40:23Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > And I find it bizarre to the point of impossibility that you really live in a world where you’ve never met anyone titled Ms. However, I don’t actually think you’re lying, so I’m just left utterly bewildered. > > Imagine if I’d said that I’d never heard of apples despite growing up in a country where there are plenty. Wouldn’t that seem weird to you? This gap in your knowledge is approaching that level of weirdness. Even though it’s not your fault, it’s still really, really, really odd. You’re putting forth the [Argument from Ignorance](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance), from what I’m reading you’re trying to say “I can’t imagine anybody who’s never had to address someone as Ms. and have it be enforced as such, therefor…”. I’m sure I’ve met people titled Ms. but I’ve never been forced to go one way or the other, at least not to my conscious knowledge. It’s not a matter of never having met anyone titled Ms., it’s not having had to interact with them in a manner that requires me to call them Ms. ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/94 "2009-07-10T18:45:29Z")
> [@Ludy](#): > > Basically my marrital status is of no consiquence to anyone but my husband, so what does it matter if a stranger knows or not? I don’t think this is exactly what you mean. People (regardless of gender) usually make their marriages public knowledge via big ceremonies and the display of wedding rings. Marital status as public knowledge is one aspect of marriage IMHO. The reason the Miss/Mrs. thing is different is that it seems to imply something about the personal identity of the woman (Seriously, “Mrs. John Smith?” Gimme a break.) as subservient to that of the man. (Like you said, of course.) FTR: I’m a married man and am glad my wife kept her maiden name. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/95 "2009-07-10T19:35:31Z")
> [@TheMadEngineer](#): > > You’re putting forth the [Argument from Ignorance](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance), from what I’m reading you’re trying to say “I can’t imagine anybody who’s never had to address someone as Ms. and have it be enforced as such, therefor…”. I’m sure I’ve met people titled Ms. but I’ve never been forced to go one way or the other, at least not to my conscious knowledge. It’s not a matter of never having met anyone titled Ms., it’s not having had to interact with them in a manner that requires me to call them Ms. No, I really am not putting forth anything remotely resembling an argument from ignorance. I have repeatedly said that I _don’t_ think you’re lying. Did I type that in invisible ink or something? What I’m saying is that I find it so hard to believe that you’ve never, to your knowledge met a Ms, but, at the same time, I don’t think you’re lying, so I’m weirded out. Do you honestly not get that? Your experience is really, really, really unusual. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/96 "2009-07-10T21:33:59Z")
The only time I’ve ever been refered to as “Master \_\_\_\_\_” was on wedding invitations when I was a kid and one high school teacher (who refered to girls as Miss \_\_\_\_). The only other places I’ve seen “Master” used was in a juvenile court. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/97 "2009-07-10T21:38:25Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > The only time I’ve ever been refered to as “Master \_\_\_\_\_” was on wedding invitations when I was a kid Psh, in which case, I call out your username as being highly misleading. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/98 "2009-07-10T22:16:57Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > No, I really am not putting forth anything remotely resembling an argument from ignorance. I have repeatedly said that I _don’t_ think you’re lying. Did I type that in invisible ink or something? > > What I’m saying is that I find it so hard to believe that you’ve never, to your knowledge met a Ms, but, at the same time, I don’t think you’re lying, so I’m weirded out. Do you honestly not get that? Your experience is really, really, really unusual. I actually don’t find it that hard to believe. It wouldn’t surprise me if my college-age children had the same experience. All of their grade school teachers went by “Miss” or “Mrs”, and I think their high school teachers did as well. Their friend’s mothers at least tolerated the use of “Mrs.” Now that they are in college, they may encounter a “Ms”. Or maybe not- when I was in college, instructors were either “Dr X”, “Professor Y”, or “Just call me Bob”. ---
**Author:** ![Teacake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Teacake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teacake)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/99 "2009-07-10T23:01:02Z")
If asked, my title is Ms. It’s not so much that it’s none of your damn business whether I’m married or not; it’s that I am an individual, an adult person in my own right, and it doesn’t matter. Most of the time, my marital status is entirely irrelevant. I belong neither to my father nor to any other man. I belong to me, and since it’s me you’re interacting with, that’s fine. I can actually make my own decisions, don’t worry, I don’t have to get the patriarch’s permission. It’s also degrading; as if a woman materially changes in that moment of saying “I do” and needs a whole new definition, whereas a man is always just himself. If a man can be Mr his whole life and never have to reveal whether he’s managed to catch a woman yet, it’s only just that a woman should be afforded the same privilege. I don’t expect my marital status to be relevant to any discussion I may have with anyone other than a friend, and in that situation they can pretty much just call me Tea. (Obviously there may be occasions when someone needs to know, like for a mortgage or something. That’s different.) Anyway. As **SciFiSam** mentioned, at work it’s Ms Teacake if I’m getting my whole name, but just “Miss, Miss, he’s trying to stab me” (or whatever) if I’m not. This applies to married and unmarried women in my workplace, and other schools, in my experience. I wonder if the women who don’t like Ms were those who are old enough to remember disliking their experience of the feminist movement of the seventies in general, and it’s younger women who are now taking it up. (I was not born until the end of the seventies, just so you know!) I hope I’m making sense. It’s been a long week. Apologies if I’m rambling. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381/100 "2009-07-10T23:39:14Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I find it completely unfathomable that anyone living in an English-speaking country doesn’t know that Ms and Miss are different. > > Not knowing the origins of the words is understandable, but did it never occur to you that four letter words like Miss don’t usually get abbreviated at all? Didn’t you ever wonder why it was sometimes abbreviated and sometimes not? It’s not as if you ever see Mister or Mistress written in full before someone’s name. Not only that, but a lot of times on forms you can select Miss OR Ms. as your title. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-vs-miss/502381.md?page=6)