Which is why I use Ms. It no longer applies for “in person” meetings, since I wear a wedding ring, but I’ve only been married for 12 years. For mail purposes, I like Ms. just fine.
Our Indian crew addresses women as “madame”, and my boss used to get all bent out of shape, because she associates the Floozy version of madame with that title. Duh. :rolleyes:
That link (points to the underlined “Ms.”) was my cite. See footnotes in the text for the reference to use starting in the 1700s for reference to women regardless of marital status, cited from a Ms. Manners book and from Daniel Baron’s book Grammar and Gender.
Miss Manners’ Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior - page 103
Funny but wrong. The usage of Madam Chairwoman in formal settings lingers on and it definitely does not have the “e” on the end.
Ferret Handler, even the body of the Wikipedia page provides no support for the contention that Ms. is a contraction of Mistress. It was never mentioned as such in the period of introduction, which I remember quite well.
In fact, I remember arguments over whether it should take a period or not. A period made it a closer analogue of Mr. and Mrs. but the lack of a period signaled that it was not an abbreviation the way the other two were. You couldn’t even have that argument if Ms. were truly a formation from Mistress.
I note that the use of the period won out, but that was because it was the natural response of people to add on so it won by weight of popular usage. But that’s all it means.
For the record, I say ‘mister’ from time to time.
I’ve always been a little unclear on the whole ms.-miss-mrs. thing. Mostly because the way I’d normally pronounce all three is really, really close, unless I’m trying to enunciate more. The first ‘s’ is always unvoiced, and then there’s a sort of half-indication that there’s going to be a second ‘s’, as in ‘missus’, but I stop before actually pronouncing it. Plus, being from a notably hippie town on the West coast, the only time I ever used them was for teachers, and then only grade school. Professors just get names, no titles.
When I have to send a business letter and don’t know who will be reading it I always address it as: Dear Sir or Madame.
Wow - what a great and informative discussion; I had no idea. I think I’m going to get that book about the lies your teacher told you.
Also, you can address letters as such “To Whom It May concern” and hope that someone gives a darn!
The same Wikipedia article also says
In any case, I am inclined to believe the OED in cases of etymology:
Whenever I do this, I’m always tempted to do something I saw (I think) in “Peanuts” many many years ago:
To Whom It May Concern:
Dear Whom,
I’m in Connecticut. Though I have to say I have had about 0 need to use Ms. in any real context - I’m going into my third year of college and through my pre-college education, female teachers were mostly Mrs., and if not they were Miss. I had always assumed Ms. was an abreviation of Miss in the same way Mr. is of Mister, Dr. is of Doctor, and Mrs. is of Misses.
To me, the only real gripe I have with Ms. is to me it sounds ugly and doesn’t add anything to the flow of the language. But that’s just my personal philological preference - I enjoy having my language flow and sound pretty (Further proof if this is the fact that I studied French for six years >.> ), so the use of a z sound just grates on me unless the name following the word sounds good with “Mizz”.
I’ve been living with my SO for over 10 years, and Ms. is my prefered title.
I’m not married, so Mrs. doesn’t apply, yet I’m not single in the “not attached” sense.
That, and usually if they have to ask my marital status, it’s none of their business.
Growing up in the '70s and '80s. I remember the push to use Ms. and the confusion (and oddly enough, anger) it caused for some people.
Yeah, that’s the part that I don’t get. What’s to get angry about? Does anyone really have a *right *to know a woman’s marital status (particularly if no similar right is expected for men?) I can understand how some women might not like the title and might not want to use it (that’s what choice is all about) but not why anybody it doesn’t directly affect would be angry about it.
Your experience is not representative.
You’re absolutely right - I do the same thing.
I would be considered a “spinster” (now there’s an annoying term) and I absolutely HATE the whole “Ms” thing.
To me it sounds much more degrading than “Miss.” Maybe it’s because of how it was forced on the public back in the 70’s. Women who used it then always corrected people in a haughty tone and gave it a negative connotation to me.
When I was a kid, I never heard the explanation for the terms and I always thought that Mr = Man, Miss = never married woman, Mrs. = Married woman, and Ms. = Divorced woman.
Frankly, I never understood why anyone gave a rat’s ass about the titles to begin with…but, if forced to use a title, I would actually prefer Miss for being single. It just sounds friendlier to me.
I am 33 and never married. Miss makes me feel about eight years old. My elderly grandma still sends mail to Miss, but given her age, I don’t mind. Much.
Ms seems perfectly natural to me.
No kidding. About 15 years ago, we bought our first home. I was in my late 20s. Imagine my dismay when I was given the mortgage paper work to sign, and my SO was “SO - bachelor” and I was “ToC - spinster”.
Yep, into the 90s, that was still the term used by our bank in Chicago.
Is that a joke? I’ve never heard it pronounced that way.
You need more experience.
Do you also get annoyed when women asked not to be referred to as girls?
Back in high school and college when I worked in a grocery store and then various coffee shops, I addressed all male customers as “sir” and all female customers as “ma’am.” You should have seen some of the middle-aged women–“Oh, I’m not old enough to be a MA’AM.” :rolleyes: My reply was always that I call the eight-year-old girls who come in to buy gum “ma’am,” too.
The only “Family Circus” cartoon I ever found amusing–way back in the 70’s–was one where Dolly explained to Jeffy, “You call a lady ‘Mrs.’ if she’s married, ‘Miss’ if she’s not married, and ‘Ms.’ if it’s a secret”.