# MS Word grammar question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 23, 2001, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-word-grammar-question/51441 "2001-01-23T19:36:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2001, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-word-grammar-question/51441/1 "2001-01-23T19:36:59Z")
It’s been bugging me for a while that MS word always tells me to set off dependent clauses with commas. The rule I learned in high school was that you don’t use a comma if the clause is an essential qualifier of what you’re trying to say. I can explain this better with an example: Apples which are red are one of my favorite foods. (ie I specifically like _red_ apples, but not necessarily any other kind.) Apples, which are red, are one of my favorite foods. (ie I like apples, and, BTW, apples are red.) Am I wrong here, or is bad grammar to be added to the many sins of Gatestopheles? -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2001, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-word-grammar-question/51441/2 "2001-01-23T20:08:07Z")
Perish forfend that the same people who put “Shut Down” under “Start” have grammar problems. Word 97 on my system makes the same suggested change; however, it does allow “Apples that are red…” rather than “Apples which…” ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2001, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-word-grammar-question/51441/3 "2001-01-23T20:27:23Z")
Gates is partially right and you’re partially wrong. The old-fashioned rule is to use “that” for restrictive clauses and “which” for nonrestrictive clauses. So Word sees “which” and figures you must intend a nonrestrictive clause. Some grammar authorities these days claim that it is acceptable to begin a restrictive clause with “which.” These authorities, however, are anarchists at heart, and I decline to endorse their heretical views. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![jeyen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a4c791/32.png) [@jeyen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jeyen)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2001, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-word-grammar-question/51441/4 "2001-01-23T20:41:35Z")
Hi, **Ben**. According to most U.S. style guides, you should use “that” for essential clauses and “which” for non-essential clauses. Hence Word’s grammar recommendations to you. Some of my favorite references where you can read more about this: [ul][li]_Woe Is I_ by Patricia T. O’Conner, Grosset/Putnam[/li][li]_Lapsing into a Comma_ by Bill Walsh, Contemporary Books[/li][li]_The Well-Tempered Sentence_ by Karen Elizabeth Gordon, Ticknor & Fields[/li][/ul] IIRC, in U.K. English it is acceptable to use “which” for non-essential clauses. All of my style guides are U.S. versions, though, so I can’t confirm that. Jeyen ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2001, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-word-grammar-question/51441/5 "2001-01-23T22:16:09Z")
Thanks- it looks like I didn’t remember high school English as well as I thought! -Ben ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2001, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-word-grammar-question/51441/6 "2001-01-24T00:02:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Perish forfend that the same people who put “Shut Down” under “Start” have grammar problems. Why is that an issue? Don’t you click on “Start” to start the shutdown process? ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2001, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-word-grammar-question/51441/7 "2001-01-24T00:03:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*Gates is partially right and you’re partially wrong. The old-fashioned rule is to use “that” for restrictive clauses and “which” for nonrestrictive clauses. So Word sees “which” and figures you must intend a nonrestrictive clause. > > Some grammar authorities these days claim that it is acceptable to begin a restrictive clause with “which.” These authorities, however, are anarchists at heart, and I decline to endorse their heretical views. 😉 \*\* Hi **minty**. Could I trouble you for examples which clarify the ‘that / which’ distinction, as you understand it? I’m a Brit with a reasonably good grasp of grammar, but I am interested in the ‘standard’ distinction, according to US English usage, to which you refer. Many thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Rasa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rasa/32/3578_2.png) [@Rasa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rasa)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2001, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-word-grammar-question/51441/8 "2001-01-24T00:17:53Z")
IIRC from my days supporting Word, Microsoft doesn’t actually _write_ the grammar utility; it’s written by a third party. I know the international spelling and grammar tools aren’t written by Microsoft. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2001, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-word-grammar-question/51441/9 "2001-01-24T00:26:45Z")
\*_ianzin_, when I looked in my usage dictionary for that first post, I noticed that it said you Brits use “which” for both restrictive and nonrestrictive clauses. So my earlier post doesn’t apply to ya’ll. Set your MSWord language to “English (UK)” and you ought to be just fine. 🙂 But just so you know what I’m talking about, the American rule is applied as follows (plagiarizing from the OP): Apples that are red are one of my favorite foods. (I specifically like _red_ apples, but not necessarily any other kind.) Apples, which are red, are one of my favorite foods. (I like apples, and, BTW, apples are red.) ---
**Author:** ![Catmarie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8491ac/32.png) [@Catmarie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catmarie)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2001, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-word-grammar-question/51441/10 "2001-01-24T13:21:44Z")
Unfortunately it doesn’t work that way 'cause I have my grammer set to UK English and it still does it, it drives my Mum crazy but its just one of those things. It’s becoming more normal to use “that” and “which” rather than just “which”. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2001, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-word-grammar-question/51441/11 "2001-01-24T15:28:14Z")
All part of Bill Gates’ nefarious plot for world domination, **Catmarie**. Step 1: Monopolize software industry Step 2: Who the hell is Opal? Step 3: Force everyone to speak American English Step 4: Declare war on the rest of the Universe ---
**Author:** ![Popup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@Popup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Popup)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2001, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-word-grammar-question/51441/12 "2001-01-24T15:54:06Z")
The subject has been treated by Michael Quinion in his (UK-biased) World Wide Words: [http://www.worldwidewords.org/usagenotes/un-which.htm](http://www.worldwidewords.org/usagenotes/un-which.htm) summary: - use ‘that’ (or ‘which’) without comma in non-restrictive clauses - use ‘which’ with commas in restrictive clauses Mark Israel agrees in the (more US-biased) alt.usage.english FAQ: [http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~laker/faq/faq.html#ythatyvsywhichy](http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~laker/faq/faq.html#ythatyvsywhichy) \ Is there a newer version of the alt.usage.english FAQ around? \ ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2001, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-word-grammar-question/51441/13 "2001-01-25T01:54:45Z")
**minty green** wrote > [@](#): > > All part of Bill Gates’ nefarious plot for world domination. Or did you mean **word** domination? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2001, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-word-grammar-question/51441/14 "2001-01-25T04:25:16Z")
He who would control the world must first control the word.