# msmith537 gives his $0.02 regarding all things Trek **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 16, 2004, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/msmith537-gives-his-0-02-regarding-all-things-trek/224858 "2004-01-16T23:41:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2004, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/msmith537-gives-his-0-02-regarding-all-things-trek/224858/21 "2004-01-19T09:13:41Z")
> [@The Long Road](#): > > Ouch, see, that is a logical argument. Don’t do that. Please don’t make me start injecting logic into things Trek cause I’d soon be insane. They didn’t need money and could produce any food or drink they wanted by asking a machine but they had bartenders? Who wants to be a bartender for free and have your life’s work be repeating peoples orders to a machine and then carrying the orders back? Pleeeeeeeeeease, my head hurts. I dunno, there’s something to be said about the human touch. We even observe it today, when we complain about automated phone systems. I mean, why do people GO to bars, besides to just hang out and get drunk? To meet people, interact, sometimes with the bartender. Can’t do that with replicators. And sometimes being there and talking to people is in of itself useful; how do you think “Yesterday’s Enterprise” would’ve turned out if Guinan hadn’t been around? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2004, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/msmith537-gives-his-0-02-regarding-all-things-trek/224858/22 "2004-01-19T11:25:10Z")
> [@The Long Road](#): > > The Prime Directive only applied to people who have not yet developed warp drive. If they have advanced beyond this point, you can jump right in and enjoy all sorts of hijinks. Didn’t they invoke the Prime Directive to keep from interfering in the Klingon Civil War? Marc ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2004, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/msmith537-gives-his-0-02-regarding-all-things-trek/224858/23 "2004-01-19T17:01:18Z")
The Bajorans petitioned the Federation for help in rebuilding their infrastructure after an invasion and occupation by the Cardassians and since they were an advanced enough race, they were given help. The Klingon Civil War was an internal matter. Once it was realized it had outside causes (the Romulans), the Federation did help. > [@](#): > > In all Trek series and movies, when talking about the human race in the past, make sure to be derogatory because everyone who lived before you was a complete idiot. How did the human race manage to survive long enough to create the federation? TNG takes place in the latter half of the 24th Century, four hundred years from now. Do you mean to tell me that you, as a member of the 21st Century, think of your own counterpart in the 17th Century as an equal to you? Or do you pity the poor bastard when you watch specials about his life and times in the 1600s and can’t imagine having to live the way he did? They’re hardly worse than we are about believing our own propoganda. ---
**Author:** ![av8rmike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/edb3f5/32.png) [@av8rmike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/av8rmike)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2004, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/msmith537-gives-his-0-02-regarding-all-things-trek/224858/24 "2004-01-19T17:14:11Z")
So-so rant. If the things you’d mentioned weren’t mostly covered in Phil Farrand’s _Nitpicker’s Guides_, I’d give you more points for originality. 😛 IIRC, there are 4 occurances of Holodeck matter leaving the Holdeck intact: [ol] [li]Wesley is still wet after getting dunked in “Encounter at Farpoint.”[/li][li]Picard is hit by a holo-snowball in “Naked Now.”[/li][li]Picard has lipstick on his face after a woman kisses him. (“The Big Goodbye”?)[/li][li]Data carries out a piece of paper on which Moriarty has drawn the _Enterprise_ in “Ship in a Bottle.”[/li][/ol] Bow before my geekness. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2004, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/msmith537-gives-his-0-02-regarding-all-things-trek/224858/25 "2004-01-19T20:44:23Z")
> [@](#): > > ST:TNG - At which number of malfunctions do you decide that Data has serious problems and take him/it apart? How many episodes had Data doing something bad because of some internal and/or external cause? Frankly, if I were captain he would have been shot out the airlock around episode 5 at the latest. It seemed to me that the more common theme was that all the humans malfunctioned, while Data was the only functioning character. There were an awful lot of times when the enemy did something to incapacitate every living thing on board, and Data had to come to the rescue. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Long\_Road](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5a626/32.png) [@The\_Long\_Road](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Long_Road)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2004, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/msmith537-gives-his-0-02-regarding-all-things-trek/224858/26 "2004-01-19T21:37:32Z")
> [@av8rmike](#): > > So-so rant. If the things you’d mentioned weren’t mostly covered in Phil Farrand’s _Nitpicker’s Guides_, I’d give you more points for originality. 😛 > IIRC, there are 4 occurances of Holodeck matter leaving the Holdeck intact: > [ol] > [li]Wesley is still wet after getting dunked in “Encounter at Farpoint.”[/li][li]Picard is hit by a holo-snowball in “Naked Now.”[/li][li]Picard has lipstick on his face after a woman kisses him. (“The Big Goodbye”?)[/li][li]Data carries out a piece of paper on which Moriarty has drawn the _Enterprise_ in “Ship in a Bottle.”[/li][/ol] > Bow before my geekness. 🙂 If you mean me, myself and I, then I am proud to announce for all to hear that I have not only not read the book mentioned nor any other source of Trek trivia. Those brain cells are better used learning something useful like how much lint my bellybutton can hold. > [@](#): > > I dunno, there’s something to be said about the human touch. We even observe it today, when we complain about automated phone systems. I mean, why do people GO to bars, besides to just hang out and get drunk? To meet people, interact, sometimes with the bartender. Can’t do that with replicators. And sometimes being there and talking to people is in of itself useful; how do you think “Yesterday’s Enterprise” would’ve turned out if Guinan hadn’t been around? Leaper, come back to me man, put down the Trek books and step away from the ledge. Those people who provide the “human touch” in today’s society are **paid** to do so. As for “Yesterday’s Enterprise”, you do realize that didn’t actually take place, right man? I mean, it was just a show. Whoopi Goldberg could have been written in as anything, not just a bartender. She could have been given the character of Tulac the galactic mime. > [@](#): > > It seemed to me that the more common theme was that all the humans malfunctioned, while Data was the only functioning character. There were an awful lot of times when the enemy did something to incapacitate every living thing on board, and Data had to come to the rescue. Chronos, good point and one that leads me to another observation: Serving in Starfleet(for no money of course) must be the most dangerous occupation to ever exist. Why you ask? Well, good question! Each week the Enterprise came within a hair of being destroyed only to be saved by the quick actions of Data or Giordi. Since other ships did not have Giordi or Data, it is safe to assume that they were destroyed when such events happened. Wait you say! They had engineers just as good as Giordi! Perhaps but they did not have anything similar to Data, so each time that Data saved the ship, another ship in a similar situation would have been destroyed. I don’t know about you but I would rather be a bartender on Earth for no pay than getting blown up in space for lack of having Data on board. Ohhh yay!, We are the biggest baddest ship in the Federation which is always called to fight when some war is about to break out. Because of this, let’s load the ship up with kids!! Yeah!! “The Enterprise is a ship of exploration, not war”…yeah, I remember Whoopi saying that line. Bullcrap! In all the times that the Enterprise crew know they were going into a hostile situation and might be destroyed, did Picard ever say, “We better offload the kiddies before we get shot up!”? Noper. The kids always magically vanished during these episodes only to show up as plot devices for the next episodes. They all vanished except for Wesley, who as mentioned before, should have been shot out of an airlock. I’ve got an idea, why not put kids on Battleships and Aircraft carriers! Except Wesley of course, they can drag him behind. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2004, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/msmith537-gives-his-0-02-regarding-all-things-trek/224858/27 "2004-01-20T00:52:51Z")
> [@cityboy916](#): > > Gamma… I see **Aesiron** beat me to it. > > **CadburyAngel** , I noticed that too but always wondered what business the Federation had interfering with the Bajorans and the Cardassians. It’s my understanding that neither one is a member of Starfleet, so wouldn’t DS9 be in violation of the Prime Directive? Because the Federation ignores/is hamstringed by their foreign policy of "non interference as they see fit (or as the plot requires it). > [@The Long Road](#): > > Since other ships did not have Giordi or Data, it is safe to assume that they were destroyed when such events happened. Wait you say! That’s the reason few ships get their own series. The difference between a ship depresurized by a crew gone insane and another amusing and exciting anecdote in the ships log is the Enterprise crews ability to solve any problem within 60 minutes (sometimes 120). Speaking of Data, what the hell is wrong with his programming that a) he keeps wanting to be “human” and b) can’t use contractions? if strTextin = “can not” then strText = “can’t” end if not hard. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2004, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/msmith537-gives-his-0-02-regarding-all-things-trek/224858/28 "2004-01-20T01:11:25Z")
I’m going to nitpick the nitpicks of someone else’s nitpick. All we need is for a fourth part to do the same to this post, and we’ll cause a fracture in the space/time continuum. > [@Aesiron](#): > > To reiterate what \*\*Achernar \*\* said, this is easily explained by the show being about Starfleet characters and set on Starfleet vessels. You’re basing your perceptions of a society of billions of life forms on what you’ve seen of six of its military installations and five dozen of its citizens. Out of five entire TV series, they can’t find anything interesting going on in that universe that doesn’t focus on Starfleet vessels? > [@](#): > > Starfleet, despite what Picard and crew try to say, is a military organization. Would you rather they defend their borders with the interstellar equivalent of Greenpeace barges? Isn’t that what they’re already doing? Starfleet battle tactics seem to consist of staying in one place and firing one shot every thirty seconds. With tactics like these, I think the _Rainbow Warrior_ could have out-fought just about any Galaxy-class starship you care to name. > [@](#): > > I can only think of three particular instances in which a Galaxy Class starship exploded. Two of those were because they were under attack. Are you including timeloops and alt-universes or something? Fair enough, although it seems relevent that no warp core has ever been succesfully ejected in the history of warp-drive powered vehicles. Must’ve been designed by the same incompetent schmucks who invented the holodeck. > [@](#): > > Yes, and to Americans, all French are ill tempered and ill smelling snobs whereas all Germans are hardworking stoics and all Mexicans are shiftless thieves. We’re never going to outgrow stereotypes. I thought that was exactly what we were supposed to have done by the 24th century? Besides which, there’s a difference between presenting chracters _as_ stereotypes, and presenting characters _who believe in_ stereotypes. > [@](#): > > The aliens need to be essentially humanoid, otherwise the audience will not be as interested in humans’ dealings with them. Also, you can only do so much with a limited TV budget. _Babylon 5_ had much more alien-looking aliens at a fraction of the budget than any Trek incarnation. They also had aliens who actually acted alien. It was also ten times better than the very best Star Trek series ever made. It’s closest competitor, in fact, was basically a pale imitator of B5. > [@](#): > > See Species 8472, Gomaatu, the Horta, the Tholians, the Crystalline entity, and numerous others for exceptions though. All good examples of why ST avoided truly alien aliens: they weren’t any good at it. At least they recognized their own limitations. (Except for the Horta, which was cool.) > [@](#): > > Or they just don’t have the time to cross reference all past incidences to see if this had been dealt with in the past. There’s only so much computer space and some of it has to go to life support and other essential functions. I can’t believe that hard-disk space is going to be that much of a limitating factor on twenty-fourth century government-owned space ships. Install a couple more 10,000 terrabyte harddisks. After another four centuries of micronization, the things must be the size of a pack of cigarettes by now. > [@](#): > > Touche. Thankfully, DS9 is rarely guilty of this whereas most of the other four are dripping with it. > > See previous statement. DS9 is my favorite for a reason. Agreed. _Deep Space Nine_ was so good it doesn’t deserve to be called Star Trek. Still not as good as _Babylon 5_, though. Okay, it should be clear now that I don’t much like Star Trek. But you know what’s really pathetic? I still watch it every time it’s on. Even _Voyager_. Who’s the bigger Trek geek, the guy who watches every single episode because he loves it more than life itself, or the guy who watches every single episode despite the fact that he hates it? ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2004, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/msmith537-gives-his-0-02-regarding-all-things-trek/224858/29 "2004-01-20T03:59:16Z")
I’ve got nothing better to do, so why not? > [@](#): > > Out of five entire TV series, they can’t find anything interesting going on in that universe that doesn’t focus on Starfleet vessels? There’s only so much that can be done with the private sector that will make it interesting. How many TV shows do you have dealing with sanitation workers, secretaries, and manual laborourers when compared to shows about doctors, police, and lawyers? > [@](#): > > Isn’t that what they’re already doing? Starfleet battle tactics seem to consist of staying in one place and firing one shot every thirty seconds. With tactics like these, I think the _Rainbow Warrior_ could have out-fought just about any Galaxy-class starship you care to name. The space battles are pretty unrealistic, I’ll give you that. Again, Deep Space Nine is the exception with its portrayal of the Dominion War and actual _tactics_. > [@](#): > > Fair enough, although it seems relevent that no warp core has ever been succesfully ejected in the history of warp-drive powered vehicles. Must’ve been designed by the same incompetent schmucks who invented the holodeck. It was ejected every other week on Voyager… I think they even had to barter with someone to get a new one at one point. That opens up a whole different area of nitpickicking though. > [@](#): > > I thought that was exactly what we were supposed to have done by the 24th century? Besides which, there’s a difference between presenting chracters _as_ stereotypes, and presenting characters _who believe in_ stereotypes. Like I said… we’re never going to outgrow it and Picard thinking he’s better than us is no different than thinking we’re better than some faceless French serf. Of course, I can always use DS9 as another example of how Trek doesn’t always do this. Garak, Quark, Rom, Nog, Damar, Winn Adami, and almost every other recurring character on the show was an actual character and not a stereotype. > [@](#): > > _Babylon 5_ had much more alien-looking aliens at a fraction of the budget than any Trek incarnation. They also had aliens who actually acted alien. It was also ten times better than the very best Star Trek series ever made. It’s closest competitor, in fact, was basically a pale imitator of B5. I’ve only seen bits and pieces of the show and what I saw didn’t interest me. I can handle the “B5 ROOOOOLZ” crowd a whole lot easier than I can the Star Wars fan that sneers at Trek though, so I thank for being the former instead of the latter. > [@](#): > > All good examples of why ST avoided truly alien aliens: they weren’t any good at it. At least they recognized their own limitations. (Except for the Horta, which was cool.) The Horta? Not really… it was a mother protecting its young. That’s as cliched as you can get. I much preferred Gomaatu, the living starship. I think it was a more alien character. > [@](#): > > I can’t believe that hard-disk space is going to be that much of a limitating factor on twenty-fourth century government-owned space ships. Install a couple more 10,000 terrabyte harddisks. After another four centuries of micronization, the things must be the size of a pack of cigarettes by now. Do you honestly expect every starship to carry with it the complete logs of every ship’s log over an almost three hundred year timeframe? That has to be a ton of data. And speaking of Data, not every ship will have one to be able to automatically cross reference every incident that is taking place and tell you the best course of action. It might take a while to check it all out and by that time, the ship might lose a baffle plate or something. > [@](#): > > Okay, it should be clear now that I don’t much like Star Trek. But you know what’s really pathetic? I still watch it every time it’s on. Even _Voyager_. Who’s the bigger Trek geek, the guy who watches every single episode because he loves it more than life itself, or the guy who watches every single episode despite the fact that he hates it? To each their own. I watch shows I’m not particularly interested in either. I’m also nowhere near as obsessive about the shows as I used to be. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2004, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/msmith537-gives-his-0-02-regarding-all-things-trek/224858/30 "2004-01-20T06:09:51Z")
**Aesiron** , because you made that post, I’m now living in a world where the Nazis won WWII. Thanks a lot, asshole. > [@Aesiron](#): > > There’s only so much that can be done with the private sector that will make it interesting. How many TV shows do you have dealing with sanitation workers, secretaries, and manual laborourers when compared to shows about doctors, police, and lawyers? That’s six ideas that are more interesting than anything I’ve seen on _Enterprise_. Maybe there is “only so much” they can do in the private sector, but Trek hasn’t done _anything_ in the private sector. It’s just one show after another that’s set on the bridge of a spaceship. DS9 being the perennial exception, since it was set on the bridge of a space station. The point is, Starfleet has been done to death. If they can’t find a show to do that isn’t about Starfleet, then maybe they should stop making Star Trek shows. > [@](#): > > The space battles are pretty unrealistic, I’ll give you that. Again, Deep Space Nine is the exception with its portrayal of the Dominion War and actual _tactics_. Granted, DS9 did have interesting and exciting space battles, but I was always disappointed that they went with the small, agile, banking-in-a-vacuum spaceships. The best Trek battle ever was from _Wrath of Kahn_, which was more submarine/battleship style combat. Eh. It was still cool. > [@](#): > > Like I said… we’re never going to outgrow it and Picard thinking he’s better than us is no different than thinking we’re better than some faceless French serf. You’re missing my second point. I don’t care if the characters stereotype _each other_, its when the stereotypes are written into the very fabric of the created universe that it bugs me. If “Klingons are violent” was the outlook of the average Starfleet officer, I wouldn’t mind. But “Klingons are violent” is held as a truism by the average Star Trek writer. That sucks. > [@](#): > > Of course, I can always use DS9 as another example of how Trek doesn’t always do this. Garak, Quark, Rom, Nog, Damar, Winn Adami, and almost every other recurring character on the show was an actual character and not a stereotype. Goddamit, if you keep this up, you’re going to convince me to start buying the DS9 DVDs, and I still haven’t even got season three of B5 yet. > [@](#): > > I’ve only seen bits and pieces of the show and what I saw didn’t interest me. I can handle the “B5 ROOOOOLZ” crowd a whole lot easier than I can the Star Wars fan that sneers at Trek though, so I thank for being the former instead of the latter. Well, I used to be, but thanks to the last two movies, I can no longer argue in good faith that Star Trek is stupider than Star Wars. > [@](#): > > The Horta? Not really… it was a mother protecting its young. That’s as cliched as you can get. I much preferred Gomaatu, the living starship. I think it was a more alien character. That’s what made it interesting: the points of interest in common between two radically different species. Sure, the horta may be a silicoid life form that looks like the second cousin of Pizza the Hutt, but we can still shared points of reference in the protective instincts of a parent. That’s what science fiction is all about. When an alien species looks and acts just like a human, finding that you share things in common isn’t particularly surprising or interesting. > [@](#): > > Do you honestly expect every starship to carry with it the complete logs of every ship’s log over an almost three hundred year timeframe? Yes. > [@](#): > > That has to be a ton of data. And speaking of Data, not every ship will have one to be able to automatically cross reference every incident that is taking place and tell you the best course of action. It might take a while to check it all out and by that time, the ship might lose a baffle plate or something. To hell with Data. Google would be more than enough. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2004, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/msmith537-gives-his-0-02-regarding-all-things-trek/224858/31 "2004-01-20T06:34:48Z")
> [@av8rmike](#): > > IIRC, there are 4 occurances of Holodeck matter leaving the Holdeck intact: > [ol] > [li]Wesley is still wet after getting dunked in “Encounter at Farpoint.”[/li][li]Picard is hit by a holo-snowball in “Naked Now.”[/li][li]Picard has lipstick on his face after a woman kisses him. (“The Big Goodbye”?)[/li][li]Data carries out a piece of paper on which Moriarty has drawn the _Enterprise_ in “Ship in a Bottle.”[/li][/ol] 1. Riker’s erection after dancing with Minuet. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2004, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/msmith537-gives-his-0-02-regarding-all-things-trek/224858/32 "2004-01-20T06:52:21Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > **Aesiron** , because you made that post, I’m now living in a world where the Nazis won WWII. Thanks a lot, asshole. With Bush in power and Homeland Security, how can you tell the difference? > [@](#): > > That’s six ideas that are more interesting than anything I’ve seen on _Enterprise_. Maybe there is “only so much” they can do in the private sector, but Trek hasn’t done _anything_ in the private sector. It’s just one show after another that’s set on the bridge of a spaceship. DS9 being the perennial exception, since it was set on the bridge of a space station. The point is, Starfleet has been done to death. If they can’t find a show to do that isn’t about Starfleet, then maybe they should stop making Star Trek shows. Yes, but how are we going to explore strange new worlds, seek out new life and civilizations, and boldly go where no one has gone before when your characters are drinking raktajino in some San Francisco coffee house? > [@](#): > > Granted, DS9 did have interesting and exciting space battles, but I was always disappointed that they went with the small, agile, banking-in-a-vacuum spaceships. The best Trek battle ever was from _Wrath of Kahn_, which was more submarine/battleship style combat. Eh. It was still cool. The Wrath of Khan is overrated. I much prefer The Undiscovered Country when it comes to drama and even space battles. The heat seeking torpedo was a bit much though, I admit. > [@](#): > > You’re missing my second point. I don’t care if the characters stereotype _each other_, its when the stereotypes are written into the very fabric of the created universe that it bugs me. If “Klingons are violent” was the outlook of the average Starfleet officer, I wouldn’t mind. But “Klingons are violent” is held as a truism by the average Star Trek writer. That sucks. Well, maybe they are. Some species of terrestrial life are, on the average, violent and the same can be said of humanity as a whole as well. I do admit that it got old seeing nothing but a parade of cardboard cutout Klingons though. Although, again, to use DS9 as an example of Trek done right, Alexander, Worf’s son, is shown to definitely not be the stereotypical Klingon. > [@](#): > > Goddamit, if you keep this up, you’re going to convince me to start buying the DS9 DVDs, and I still haven’t even got season three of B5 yet. Go ahead and give in. You won’t regret it. > [@](#): > > That’s what made it interesting: the points of interest in common between two radically different species. Sure, the horta may be a silicoid life form that looks like the second cousin of Pizza the Hutt, but we can still shared points of reference in the protective instincts of a parent. That’s what science fiction is all about. When an alien species looks and acts just like a human, finding that you share things in common isn’t particularly surprising or interesting. Maybe. The whole Spock mind meld thing really sucked though. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2004, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/msmith537-gives-his-0-02-regarding-all-things-trek/224858/33 "2004-01-20T07:50:53Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > With Bush in power and Homeland Security, how can you tell the difference? The Nazis have cooler uniforms. > [@](#): > > Yes, but how are we going to explore strange new worlds, seek out new life and civilizations, and boldly go where no one has gone before when your characters are drinking raktajino in some San Francisco coffee house? There’s more to science fiction than just that. Okay, okay, Star _Trek_, I know, but if that’s all they can do with the franchise, then they just need to stop. I was impressed when they decided to end _Next Generation_ instead of milking it dry, but since DS9, they’ve just been inventing new shows that are vehicles for exactly the same plots as they used on TNG. It’s as if that show were on it’s seventeenth year, with the attendent steady drop in quality. > [@](#): > > The Wrath of Khan is overrated. I much prefer The Undiscovered Country when it comes to drama and even space battles. The heat seeking torpedo was a bit much though, I admit. Was just watching that tonight. Not bad, but a little silly. Good fight scene at the end, though. > [@](#): > > Although, again, to use DS9 as an example of Trek done right, Alexander, Worf’s son, is shown to definitely not be the stereotypical Klingon. Alexander should have gone out the airlock with Wesley. They did a good job with Worf, though. I liked the ep where he had to fight endless matches against Jem Hadar warriors. Must’ve spent the time between the two series finally learning how to fight. > [@](#): > > Maybe. The whole Spock mind meld thing really sucked though. Pain! PAIN!!! My all time favorite ST quote. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2004, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/msmith537-gives-his-0-02-regarding-all-things-trek/224858/34 "2004-01-20T11:38:11Z")
> [@](#): > > I can only think of three particular instances in which a Galaxy Class starship exploded. Two of those were because they were under attack. Are you including timeloops and alt-universes or something? When one considers that there were only three Galaxy-class starships ever built (the Galaxy, the Yamato, and the Enterprise-D), the above statistic becomes considerably more alarming. ---
**Author:** ![PookahMacPhellimey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pookahmacphellimey/32/3175_2.png) [@PookahMacPhellimey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PookahMacPhellimey)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2004, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/msmith537-gives-his-0-02-regarding-all-things-trek/224858/35 "2004-01-20T17:24:41Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Speaking of Data, what the hell is wrong with his programming that a) he keeps wanting to be “human” and b) can’t use contractions? There are countless illogical (sir) plots and contradictions in Trek but the thing about Data “wanting” to have emotions is the only one that seriously bugs me, probably because they just keep on and on about it. Whenever his attempts at acquiring emotions get scuppered, we are meant to feel sorry for him. Why feel sorry for someone (something?) who can’t feel anything? Oh and I’m so chuffed that everyone likes DS9 so much. It was always my fave, but I got the impression from various polls that everyone else preferred the tedious Voyager. Maybe Dopers just have better taste. I do feel, though that the whole Dominion War thing felt a bit contrived and seemed to basically be happening to boost ratings, rather than because of any natural plot development. With the “Bad Profets” and Dukat turning into a evil raving maniac I think it lost some of the nuances and grey areas that I liked so much about it. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2004, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/msmith537-gives-his-0-02-regarding-all-things-trek/224858/36 "2004-01-20T20:41:51Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] There’s more to science fiction than just that. Okay, okay, Star _Trek_, I know, but if that’s all they can do with the franchise, then they just need to stop. I was impressed when they decided to end _Next Generation_ instead of milking it dry, but since DS9, they’ve just been inventing new shows that are vehicles for exactly the same plots as they used on TNG. It’s as if that show were on it’s seventeenth year, with the attendent steady drop in quality. [QUOTE] I blame Berman and Braga for that. One of theings that made TOS and TNG so special is that they accepted stories from outside the studio, even well respected authors like Harlan Ellison wrote for the show… but near the end of TNG, they stopped doing that and started relying on in-house writers and even the aforementioned producers. You’ll notice a higher increase in time travel stories after Roddenberry’s death, as an example. What Trek needs is new people in power. Roddenberry stagnated near the end of his life and because of that, we got the PC police cruising around in a luxury yacht with their families and a bartender. DS9 managed to have compelling storylines and how is it different from TNG, VOY, and ENT? It had different executive producers… most notably Ira Steven Behr. > [@](#): > > Alexander should have gone out the airlock with Wesley. They did a good job with Worf, though. I liked the ep where he had to fight endless matches against Jem Hadar warriors. Must’ve spent the time between the two series finally learning how to fight. I agree… Alexander was an annoying asshole but still, you can’t deny that he’s a good example of them (read them as "DS9’s writers) breaking stereotypes and crafting an actual character. > [@](#): > > Pain! PAIN!!! > > My all time favorite ST quote. 😉 Pardon my friend, he did a little too much LDS at Berkely. [QUOTE=Smapti] When one considers that there were only three Galaxy-class starships ever built (the Galaxy, the Yamato, and the Enterprise-D), the above statistic becomes considerably more alarming. [QUOTE] Incorrect. There were at least six in service at the beginning of TNG and another six were intended to be built over the ensuing years but more were built for the Dominion War. Watch episodes of the Dominion War arc if you don’t believe me. Also, the three destroyed ships were the E-D, the Yamato, and the Odyssey. The first and last were destroyed in battle… the second was infected by a computer virus. I’ve never heard the Galaxy itself ever referred to onscreen. > [@PookahMacPhellimey](#): > > I’m so chuffed that everyone likes DS9 so much. It was always my fave, but I got the impression from various polls that everyone else preferred the tedious Voyager. Maybe Dopers just have better taste. I do feel, though that the whole Dominion War thing felt a bit contrived and seemed to basically be happening to boost ratings, rather than because of any natural plot development. With the “Bad Profets” and Dukat turning into a evil raving maniac I think it lost some of the nuances and grey areas that I liked so much about it. I’ve never known anyone other than my mom to prefer Voyager to any other incarnation of Trek and even with her, it’s easily explained away as something she and I watched together so it has special meaning for her. So far as your critiques of the Dominion War go, I felt it was rather solid overall with my only major complaint being about the deus ex machina usage of the Prophets. God, I wanted to throw my TV out the window when I saw that. The Pagh Wraiths didn’t bother me much. Evil Dukat did, but not so much… I guess I’m just too much in love with his character over the previous six years to discount him from being one dimensional in the seventh season. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2004, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/msmith537-gives-his-0-02-regarding-all-things-trek/224858/37 "2004-01-20T20:50:14Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > There’s more to science fiction than just that. Okay, okay, Star _Trek_, I know, but if that’s all they can do with the franchise, then they just need to stop. I was impressed when they decided to end _Next Generation_ instead of milking it dry, but since DS9, they’ve just been inventing new shows that are vehicles for exactly the same plots as they used on TNG. It’s as if that show were on it’s seventeenth year, with the attendent steady drop in quality. I blame Berman and Braga for that. One of theings that made TOS and TNG so special is that they accepted stories from outside the studio, even well respected authors like Harlan Ellison wrote for the show… but near the end of TNG, they stopped doing that and started relying on in-house writers and even the aforementioned producers. You’ll notice a higher increase in time travel stories after Roddenberry’s death, as an example. What Trek needs is new people in power. Roddenberry stagnated near the end of his life and because of that, we got the PC police cruising around in a luxury yacht with their families and a bartender. DS9 managed to have compelling storylines and how is it different from TNG, VOY, and ENT? It had different executive producers… most notably Ira Steven Behr. > [@](#): > > Alexander should have gone out the airlock with Wesley. They did a good job with Worf, though. I liked the ep where he had to fight endless matches against Jem Hadar warriors. Must’ve spent the time between the two series finally learning how to fight. I agree… Alexander was an annoying asshole but still, you can’t deny that he’s a good example of them (read them as "DS9’s writers) breaking stereotypes and crafting an actual character. > [@](#): > > Pain! PAIN!!! > > My all time favorite ST quote. 😉 Pardon my friend, he did a little too much LDS at Berkely. > [@Smapti](#): > > When one considers that there were only three Galaxy-class starships ever built (the Galaxy, the Yamato, and the Enterprise-D), the above statistic becomes considerably more alarming. Incorrect. There were at least six in service at the beginning of TNG and another six were intended to be built over the ensuing years but more were built for the Dominion War. Watch episodes of the Dominion War arc if you don’t believe me. Also, the three destroyed ships were the E-D, the Yamato, and the Odyssey. The first and last were destroyed in battle… the second was infected by a computer virus. I’ve never heard the Galaxy itself ever referred to onscreen. > [@PookahMacPhellimey](#): > > I’m so chuffed that everyone likes DS9 so much. It was always my fave, but I got the impression from various polls that everyone else preferred the tedious Voyager. Maybe Dopers just have better taste. I do feel, though that the whole Dominion War thing felt a bit contrived and seemed to basically be happening to boost ratings, rather than because of any natural plot development. With the “Bad Profets” and Dukat turning into a evil raving maniac I think it lost some of the nuances and grey areas that I liked so much about it. I’ve never known anyone other than my mom to prefer Voyager to any other incarnation of Trek and even with her, it’s easily explained away as something she and I watched together so it has special meaning for her. So far as your critiques of the Dominion War go, I felt it was rather solid overall with my only major complaint being about the deus ex machina usage of the Prophets. God, I wanted to throw my TV out the window when I saw that. The Pagh Wraiths didn’t bother me much. Evil Dukat did, but not so much… I guess I’m just too much in love with his character over the previous six years to discount him from being one dimensional in the seventh season. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Long\_Road](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5a626/32.png) [@The\_Long\_Road](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Long_Road)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2004, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/msmith537-gives-his-0-02-regarding-all-things-trek/224858/38 "2004-01-21T05:49:51Z")
The SD must be mad that I’m venting about Star Trek since my posts keep failing. This thread is like some weird form of therapy to work through my Trek bitterness. The last time I was enjoyed anything Trek was the episode of Voyager where they discover [Amelia Airhart](http://handbook.sevspace.com/voyager/Reviews/review201.shtml). What a huge load of stinking crap that was. Even then, I managed to somehow get through the episode and a few more until I saw a commercial for a rerun of the Airhart episode. The rerun was billed as “Amelia Airhart and Capt Janeway battle for the loyalty of the crew. Who will win and will Voyager survive?” Anyone who saw this episode knows that this bears no similarity to the actual plot. So not only did the show suck, they realized it and tried to spruce it up in the commercial by filling it with lies. After that, I gave up on the show. Were they really so stretched for plots that they had to have Voyager find an old Ford truck floating in space, then find Amelia Airhart? As for B5, it had one thing Trek could never master, continuity. If something was in one episode of B5, it would show up later on when that topic was revisited. Now look at Trek. In the episode where Barclay was taken over by the alien probe, he increased shield strength 300%, changed the ship so it could travel across the galaxy in one minute and a few other goodies. At the end, it is mentioned that he lost his super smarts but no mention is made of his discoveries. After this episode, why did they still have to use warp drive? He had given them the means of covering the galaxy in one minute. The 300% shield increase is also never mentioned. So in later episodes when the Enterprise gets knocked out with 2 shots, either they didn’t still have the increase or the ship was as well made as a junk freighter. B5 didn’t have these issues these sort of issues. Sorry but one can not end a rant without bashing the stale Trek plots. The Enterprise and Voyager could travel all over the galaxy but the writers could not develop more than 3 plots. When you totally run out of ideas, simply throw in the Borg. I gave DS9 some leeway because being on a station; the writers mainly could only work with things that came to the station. Even with that, they did a much better job than the other series. Ouch, almost forgot, the person who played Captain [Janeway](http://handbook.sevspace.com/Voyager/janeway.jpg) was being interviewed about the show and was asked what she thought of some comments by loyal Trekkies that the show was trying to be too politically correct. Her reply boiled down to, “I don’t care what they think”. Nothing like insulting the only people who watch your show to make it a stellar success. ---
**Author:** ![PookahMacPhellimey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pookahmacphellimey/32/3175_2.png) [@PookahMacPhellimey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PookahMacPhellimey)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2004, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/msmith537-gives-his-0-02-regarding-all-things-trek/224858/39 "2004-01-21T08:15:24Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > So far as your critiques of the Dominion War go, I felt it was rather solid overall with my only major complaint being about the deus ex machina usage of the Prophets. God, I wanted to throw my TV out the window when I saw that. > > The Pagh Wraiths didn’t bother me much. Evil Dukat did, but not so much… I guess I’m just too much in love with his character over the previous six years to discount him from being one dimensional in the seventh season. It was actually because of liking Dukat’s character so much that it really bothered me. When I think about it, it wasn’t so much the fact that he became evil (let’s face it, despite some nuances he never was what you would call a really nice guy), but that he seemed to be acting childishly and stupidly and that really did seem out of character, as before he was a pretty clever person, in his own kind of way. Sorry, about threadjacking here. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2004, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/msmith537-gives-his-0-02-regarding-all-things-trek/224858/40 "2004-01-21T17:59:48Z")
I realized a while back that the Federation is probably much more like Star Wars’ Empire than most people realize. Starfleet seems to have unlimited power. Starship captains can, on their own authority, interfere with the lives of civilian populations, even to the point of depopulating entire colonies (like Sisko did in that one episode). The people affected by these actions seem to have no recourse, no one that they can appeal to who has the power to overrule Starfleet’s decisions. Face it: Starfleet runs the Federation, instead of serving it as should be the case. Sometime between TOS and TNG, Starfleet must have staged a coup where the legitimate Federation government was overthrown and replaced with a puppet government that does whatever the admiralty wants it to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/msmith537-gives-his-0-02-regarding-all-things-trek/224858.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/msmith537-gives-his-0-02-regarding-all-things-trek/224858.md?page=3)