# MTV chicken and egg question **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 5, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtv-chicken-and-egg-question/668095 "2013-09-05T17:38:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtv-chicken-and-egg-question/668095/21 "2013-09-06T10:27:32Z")
> [@Aquadementia](#): > > Yeah, I remember Lucy and Ramona and Sunset Sam as what I think of as the first real music video I saw when it was on HBO. Looking it up, it’s really called Crusin’ and was by Michael Nesmith. Released in 1979 and made it to no. 6 in New Zealand, so it must have paid off in that market. Michael Nesmith was strong proponent for music videos. He must have had some experience at some point that made him think it was a good idea to pair music with images. “Crusin’” was included on the long play home video release titled _Elephant Parts_ which won Nesmith the first ever Grammy awarded to the Music Video category. Michael Nesmith created the show [Pop Clips](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_Clips) for Nickelodeon in 1980. Pop Clips set the template for MTV. > [@74westy](#): > > If it’s true that the Beatles invented music videos . . . The general rule is that no one ever invented anything. Anyone who ever did anything first was preceded by someone who had done it previously. [The Scopitone](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scopitone) was invented in the 1940s. Early music videos that played on Scopitone machines definitely predated The Beatles. “Tell Him” by The Exciters was filmed for Scopitone while The Beatles were still in Hamburg. Scopitone music videos were made popular by French musical acts by the late 1950s. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtv-chicken-and-egg-question/668095/22 "2013-09-06T17:43:40Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Peaches Records and Tapes in Tulsa OK reported more sales of certain albums / singles that were on MTV. MTV took that data point and went back to the labels and they started cranking out the videos to drive sales. Man, I used to shop at that Peaches in the early 1980’s! ---
**Author:** ![xizor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xizor/32/102_2.png) [@xizor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xizor)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtv-chicken-and-egg-question/668095/23 "2013-09-06T18:33:06Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > Michael Nesmith was strong proponent for music videos. He must have had some experience at some point that made him think it was a good idea to pair music with images. I think you could safely call the musical montages from The Monkees tv show music videos. They were capable of standing on their own separate from the show. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtv-chicken-and-egg-question/668095/24 "2013-09-11T01:01:35Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Also, why DIDN’T K-Tel offer a package that included the videos? > [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > I don’t think that many people had the capability to play videos back before MTV. Video players were just starting to come onto the market, and both the player/recorders and the tapes for them were extremely expensive. Fair enough. But consider: TIME/LIFE and other purveyors of “oldies” record anthologies are still making offers on television today (sometimes using entire half-hour infomercials to hawk their wares), still using clips from old music videos and performances. Why, I wonder. aren’t they offering the videos for sale now, when every household has a DVD player? ---
**Author:** ![Lobot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@Lobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobot)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtv-chicken-and-egg-question/668095/25 "2013-09-11T01:48:40Z")
_Countdown_ in Australia was a very successful TV show in the '70s and '80s that also predated MTV in its substantial use of music videos. From [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countdown_%28Australian_TV_series%29): > [@](#): > > Although it is not widely recognised, Countdown also had a strong international influence, because it was one of the first TV shows in the world to promote the regular use of the music video as a major part of its programming. Because of its receptivity to music videos (something of a necessity because of the comparative rarity of tours by overseas acts) Countdown proved to be instrumental in the worldwide success of a number of important overseas acts of the period. Madonna achieved her first hit single in April 1984 when “Holiday” was screened on Countdown. Subsequently “Burning Up” reached the top twenty following repeated showings of the video clip on the show; this second song was not a hit in other countries. Other international artists including Blondie, ABBA, John Mellencamp, Meat Loaf, Boz Scaggs and Cyndi Lauper achieved their first hits in Australia, thanks to their video clips being aired on Countdown, and this in turn led to their records being picked up and becoming hits in America and/or Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtv-chicken-and-egg-question/668095/26 "2013-09-11T02:46:11Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Why, I wonder. aren’t they offering the videos for sale now, when every household has a DVD player? > **[YouTube](https://www.youtube.com)** > > Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtv-chicken-and-egg-question/668095/27 "2013-09-11T03:18:46Z")
Yep, YouTube. I have to admit I’ve watched a LOT of older music videos from before MTV, things like Cass Elliot’s “Dream a Little Dream” and David Bowie’s cover of “Sorrow”. And a lot of show tunes, too. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtv-chicken-and-egg-question/668095/28 "2013-09-11T03:44:12Z")
Depending on how one defines “music video”, The Who may have had one before The Beatles. In 1964 filmmakers Chris Stamp and Kit Lambert took over management of The Who, in large part because they needed a band for a movie they were planning. This movie was never made, but they did shoot a short promotional film that they used to help market the band to club managers, etc. I seem to remember reading that this was considered rather innovative at the time, in part perhaps because the film wasn’t just footage of the band playing but a more artistically put together piece that included on-the-street footage of cool Mod kids with their scooters and such. I don’t think this film exists today, but the documentary _The Kids Are Alright_ includes a couple of later videos that the band made, such as this one for “[Happy Jack](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52cQeFBU2Kw)” (circa 1967) that IIRC was created for a television special. ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtv-chicken-and-egg-question/668095/29 "2013-09-11T04:56:00Z")
Promo videos were made for a number of reasons: bands who either didn’t tour or made songs too elaborately produced to perform on stage (the Beatles qualified on both), to reach audiences in Australia and Europe where few Anglo-American acts would bother to vist, and arty acts like David Bowie and Devo who just liked making short films. And as far as being too expensive, a lot of those videos were made for a few thousand or even cheaper. Compare that to the big money acts like Alice Cooper and Kiss spent on stage production or the tens of thousands record labels paid independent promo men for big albums. If millions see you on “Top of the Pops” or “Countdown” that’s a much wiser way of promoting an act. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtv-chicken-and-egg-question/668095/30 "2013-09-11T21:18:51Z")
The main source for me pre-MTV were the HBO fillers. Still not a lot of material. OTOH, they played some odd stuff like “[Fish Heads](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTpUVAcvWfU)” that MTV wouldn’t touch. I remember seeing an interview with an early MTV vee-jay who mentioned that there were a lot of Rod Stewart videos available so those went into heavy rotation in the early months. Gave his career a big boost. Too bad it was from the “Disco Rod” era. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtv-chicken-and-egg-question/668095/31 "2013-09-11T21:25:40Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > In my world at the time “Midnight Special” came on at 11 or 12 pm Central, small audience time. > > Thanks all > > **Capt** Yeah, audiences were so small that Monday to Thursday, the network just signed off after the 11PM news- certainly not enough viewers watching for the network to run, say, a talk show with a host, co-host, band, and guests. ---
**Author:** ![TV\_time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtv-chicken-and-egg-question/668095/32 "2013-09-11T21:56:51Z")
Also as early as the late '60s there were some special juke boxes that played what passed for music videos at the time. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtv-chicken-and-egg-question/668095/33 "2013-09-11T23:23:35Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > The main source for me pre-MTV were the HBO fillers. Still not a lot of material. OTOH, they played some odd stuff like “[Fish Heads](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTpUVAcvWfU)” that MTV wouldn’t touch. > > I remember seeing an interview with an early MTV vee-jay who mentioned that there were a lot of Rod Stewart videos available so those went into heavy rotation in the early months. Gave his career a big boost. Too bad it was from the “Disco Rod” era. Nickelodeon used to play “Fish Heads” a lot, but it was well after MTV had launched when I would have seen it there (mid-80’s-ish). ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtv-chicken-and-egg-question/668095/34 "2013-09-11T23:55:53Z")
Wait, MTV used to show music videos??? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtv-chicken-and-egg-question/668095/35 "2013-09-12T00:16:45Z")
> [@Infovore](#): > > I too remember videos being shown in the late '70s to fill time between movies. We had Showtime back then, and I remember seeing something by U2, something by Yes, and “Mickey” during these times (don’t remember the specifics of the first two). Since U2 and Toni Basil didn’t have any videos in the '70s, I imagine you’re thinking more early '80s. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtv-chicken-and-egg-question/668095/36 "2013-09-12T00:33:04Z")
To answer part of the OP question as to why record companies forked over cash to pay for pre MTV videos, the answer is they didn’t. Lots of things such as videos, studio time, producers fees, etc were charged to the artist. Either against earnings or the advance. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtv-chicken-and-egg-question/668095/37 "2013-09-12T00:40:25Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > In 1964 filmmakers Chris Stamp and Kit Lambert took over management of The Who, in large part because they needed a band for a movie they were planning. This movie was never made, but they did shoot a short promotional film that they used to help market the band to club managers, etc. I seem to remember reading that this was considered rather innovative at the time, in part perhaps because the film wasn’t just footage of the band playing but a more artistically put together piece that included on-the-street footage of cool Mod kids with their scooters and such. I don’t think this film exists today… Lambert and Stamp didn’t get that movie made, but the band was featured the 1965 French film[Les Mods](http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xt926y_les-mods-the-mods-a-french-documentary-with-eng-subs_shortfilms), which documented the Mod subculture. Watching it now, it’s funny to see the interviews–Pete and Kit were so full of themselves! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtv-chicken-and-egg-question/668095/38 "2013-09-12T00:44:16Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > …but there were videos before and attempts to launch music video shows and channels, notably in New Zealand… > [@silenus](#): > > For that matter, _Top of the Pops_ had been airing videos for years by that time. The 70s music video show in New Zealand was called _[Ready to Roll](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thJqpY4Lal0&fmt=35)_, later just _RTR_\*, and was similar to _Top of the Pops_ (or Australia’s _Countdown_\*). It played pre-recorded music videos as it counted down the top 20 pop charts, but though it also had studio-based performances, there were no crowds of people watching the live acts. And it didn’t have a host, either, or even narration until much later. Some of the studio performances were used as the act’s only music video for their singles, though those were entirely eliminated from the format by the 80s when videos became standard. Most of this is recalled from my memory, I have no cites. New Zealand also had a more Indie music late night show called _[Radio With Pictures](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=231eL-gWG-w)_, and then a weekday afternoon music show called _[Shazam](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dhc4dPLIAuA)_ starring a young Philip Schofield. \*Later still, _[RTR Countdown](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDHhM2CQqUE)_ ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtv-chicken-and-egg-question/668095/39 "2013-09-12T00:51:57Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > I remember seeing an interview with an early MTV vee-jay who mentioned that there were a lot of Rod Stewart videos available so those went into heavy rotation in the early months. Gave his career a big boost. Too bad it was from the “Disco Rod” era. There was an ancient VH-1 special on the history of videos that claimed MTV started with only 200 videos–and 40 of them were by Rod Stewart. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtv-chicken-and-egg-question/668095/40 "2013-09-12T02:45:06Z")
I’d say as long as there’s been “Talkies” there have been performance music videos. Though they were on film stock, not video tape. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtv-chicken-and-egg-question/668095.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtv-chicken-and-egg-question/668095.md?page=3)