# MTV's Fraternity Life - Hazing on TV?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 7, 2003, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtvs-fraternity-life-hazing-on-tv/159728 "2003-03-07T15:30:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtvs-fraternity-life-hazing-on-tv/159728/1 "2003-03-07T15:30:52Z")
I caught the first episode of MTV’s new show: **Fraternity Life** last night. I was shocked. They actually showed hazing on TV. The pledges were lined up shortest to tallest for a “lineup” with the pledgemaster. They were yelled at for being late, Forced to clean the house, doing push-ups as a group as punishement. Now, I was in a college Fraternity, and I don’t have any problems with this. But, these activities are illegal, no? How can they get away with this on national TV? ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtvs-fraternity-life-hazing-on-tv/159728/2 "2003-03-07T16:00:44Z")
From [Texas Tech’s student guide](http://www.studentaffairs.ttu.edu/campuslife/cl_hazing.htm#anchorHazing): > [@](#): > > Hazing is a fundamental violation of human dignity. It is defined in the Texas Education Code and the Texas Tech University Student Affairs Handbook: Code of Student Conduct. Hazing is a broad term encompassing any action or activity which does not contribute to the positive development of a person; which inflicts or intends to cause physical or mental harm or anxieties or sleep deprivation; which may demean, degrade, or disgrace any person, regardless of location, intent or consent of participants. Hazing can also be defined as any action or situation which intentionally or unintentionally endangers a student seeking admission into or affiliation with any student organization. I’m not sure that pushups for being late or cleaning the house really qualifies enough to be prosecutable. Unless they had to do it naked, smeared in peanut butter while horny dogs humped them. Plus, laws on hazing vary from state to state, so who knows? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtvs-fraternity-life-hazing-on-tv/159728/3 "2003-03-07T16:31:42Z")
I don’t remember, which state is the MTV show taking place in? I do know that many states don’t have any hazing laws at all. But, I am sure that every college has rules about hazing on the books. I know from my fraternity days, that we were very afraid of anyone in the school administration finding out about something like forced calesthenics. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtvs-fraternity-life-hazing-on-tv/159728/4 "2003-03-07T16:46:31Z")
Really? At my university, the fraternities were very open about the physical exercises they had to do and the university had no problem with it so long as it was not excessive and didn’t put anyone’s life in danger (ie, handicaps, heart problems, etc were excused or whatever). ---
**Author:** ![Breezy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@Breezy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Breezy)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtvs-fraternity-life-hazing-on-tv/159728/5 "2003-03-07T17:09:27Z")
In my opinion making the guys clean the house, and do push-ups isn’t hazing at all. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtvs-fraternity-life-hazing-on-tv/159728/6 "2003-03-07T17:20:05Z")
If its on MTV (what does the “M” stand for, anyway?) it is about as real a portrayal of actual events as most alien abduction stories. Don’t worry about it too much, and it will go away soon. For whats it worth, when I was in a fraternity, I was not hazed, nor did I ever hear of anyone being hazed, nor did I later haze any pledges. * * * Fagjunk Theology: Not just for sodomite propagandists anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtvs-fraternity-life-hazing-on-tv/159728/7 "2003-03-07T17:24:57Z")
I feel like such a schmuck knowing this, but the show is filmed at the University of Buffalo. (I haven’t seen the show, but there was an article about it in the _Buffalo News_.) So, here’s [The University of Buffalo policy on hazing](http://www.greeklife.buffalo.edu/grhaze_2.shtml). Taken from the policy: > [@](#): > > Hazing is defined as "any action taken or situation created, intentionally,whether on or off fraternity premises, to produce mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment, harassment, or ridicule. Such activities may include, but are not limited to the following: use of alcohol; paddling in any form; creation of excessive fatigue; physical and psychological shocks, quests, treasure hunts, scavenger hunts, road trips or any other activities carried on outside or inside the confines of the chapter house; wearing in public apparel which is conspicuous and not in normally good taste; engaging in public stunts and buffoonery, morally degrading or humiliating games and activities; and any other activities which are not consistent with fraternal law, ritual or policy or the laws and policies of the educational institution. I think the only sections which might qualify are “physical discomfort” or “creation of excessive fatigue,” and then only in cases where the pledge had a prior medical history. (And we don’t know if the frat took steps to determine if this might be the case.) I’m no fan of the fraternity system, but I do not consider having a pledge clean the frat house to be “harassment or ridicule.” Personally I would not consider this hazing under the UB policy. ---
**Author:** ![chukhung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e79b87/32.png) [@chukhung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chukhung)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtvs-fraternity-life-hazing-on-tv/159728/8 "2003-03-07T17:29:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Breezy \* > \*\*In my opinion making the guys clean the house…isn’t hazing at all. \*\* Cleaning a _fraternity_ house??? Doesn’t that qualify as hazardous waste cleanup? If “hazing can…be defined as any action or situation which intentionally or unintentionally endangers a student,” then I’d say those pledges were hazed–unless they got hazmat training and those “moon-suit” coveralls before they started… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtvs-fraternity-life-hazing-on-tv/159728/9 "2003-03-07T19:00:46Z")
That has to be a local fraternity. If any national fraternity saw those antics on television, they would pull that chapter’s charter. ---
**Author:** ![Bindrah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Bindrah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bindrah)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtvs-fraternity-life-hazing-on-tv/159728/10 "2003-03-07T19:25:29Z")
umm…forgive me, but why are any of you wasting your time watching that mess? i mean, enough time is spent online, why waste anymore on television for schmucks? i do like videos, but those shows on mtv just plain stink…thats right, its my opinion, i’m sharing not laying down the law… ---
**Author:** ![Wyld\_Stallyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8dc957/32.png) [@Wyld\_Stallyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wyld_Stallyn)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtvs-fraternity-life-hazing-on-tv/159728/11 "2003-03-07T20:07:18Z")
**Walloon** : You’re absolutely correct. As a recent graduate and fraternity man from a different school, but in the same neck of the woods, so to speak, I actually know some of the guys on the show through mutual friends \. If that group had any plans to try and get chartered by a national fraternity, they would be instantly vanquished becaues of countless transgressions taking part during the show. [hijack] So I’m pretty good friends with one of the kids, and he was telling me how MTV paid for a ton of the stuff that you see on the episodes. For instance, for you fellow fraternity gentlemen, how many places have a “pledge house” that is as splendorous as that one, if at all? [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtvs-fraternity-life-hazing-on-tv/159728/12 "2003-03-07T20:52:23Z")
I always had it in my head that the anti - hazing laws were extremely strict. I didn’t know that physical exercises were allowed at all: by state laws, college rules, and certainly by national chapter standards. My national chapter had very strict anti-hazing standards. Basically treating them any different than a brother was verbotten. Of course, we always followed the rules. :rolleyes: Also, the pledge house thing is valid. Why any organization would allow people to join for such obviously bad reasons is beyond me. They are all 21. They get to live in a palace and be on MTV. I am sure that it’s not brotherhood that they are thinking about when they pledged. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtvs-fraternity-life-hazing-on-tv/159728/13 "2003-03-08T16:19:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Debaser \* > \*\*II was shocked. They actually showed hazing on TV. The pledges were lined up shortest to tallest for a “lineup” with the pledgemaster. They were yelled at for being late, Forced to clean the house, doing push-ups as a group as punishement. > \*\* I think the problem is that you are a big vagina. Pushups? Cleaning the house? Boo F\*\*king Hoo. ---
**Author:** ![Slainte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a698b9/32.png) [@Slainte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slainte)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtvs-fraternity-life-hazing-on-tv/159728/14 "2003-03-10T00:18:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Debaser \* > \*\*I was shocked. They actually showed hazing on TV. The pledges were lined up shortest to tallest for a “lineup” with the pledgemaster. They were yelled at for being late, Forced to clean the house, doing push-ups as a group as punishement. > \*\* If you consider these things to be hazing, don’t join the military. Even the Air Force basic training I went through was _way_ worse than that. I always though ‘hazing’ meant setting people’s clothes on fire, making them drink enormous amounts of alcohol, locking them in car trunks, etc. ---
**Author:** ![jmizzou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/edb3f5/32.png) [@jmizzou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmizzou)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtvs-fraternity-life-hazing-on-tv/159728/15 "2003-03-10T02:00:06Z")
Whenever you talk about hazing, you need to remember one word: _context_. What causes the action is just as important as the action itself. For example, having to do push-ups for showing up late to a meeting is vastly different than having to do push-ups because an active member is bored and wants to make a pledge jump through hoops. Making the pledges clean the house on a regular basis is different than deliberately wrecking the house and making the pledges clean it. Although, I would agree, there are some actions which have _no_ appropriate context. ---
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtvs-fraternity-life-hazing-on-tv/159728/16 "2003-03-10T09:15:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stinkpalm \* > \*\*I think the problem is that you are a big vagina. > > Pushups? Cleaning the house? Boo F\*\*king Hoo. \*\* **Moderators Notes** **Stinkpalm** This sort of abusive comment is not allowed in this forum. If you have something like this to say, take it to the Pit, but do NOT post this sort of thing in this forum again. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtvs-fraternity-life-hazing-on-tv/159728/17 "2003-03-10T14:52:20Z")
Just to clarify: I have no problems with these types of hazing. I think there is nothing wrong with having pledges clean the house or do pushups as punishment. However, in my experience as a fraternity member, we lived in fear of the national office or the school finding out about such things. The way that our college anti-hazing laws were written, any of these things qualified as hazing. That’s the part that surprised me, not that this type of stuff goes on. But that they would do it on national tv. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mtvs-fraternity-life-hazing-on-tv/159728/18 "2003-03-10T15:00:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jmizzou \* > \*\*Whenever you talk about hazing, you need to remember one word: _context_. What causes the action is just as important as the action itself. For example, having to do push-ups for showing up late to a meeting is vastly different than having to do push-ups because an active member is bored and wants to make a pledge jump through hoops. Making the pledges clean the house on a regular basis is different than deliberately wrecking the house and making the pledges clean it. > > Although, I would agree, there are some actions which have _no_ appropriate context. \*\* I agree with your sentiments here **jmizzou**. However, I don’t think that the law makes any such distinctions. If hazing is defined as: “any action taken or situation created, intentionally,whether on or off fraternity premises, to produce mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment, harassment, or ridicule” then push-ups are hazing. They produce phsyical discomfort. I don’t see anything in the laws regarding the purpose of these activities. MHO, is that the hazing laws are too strict. As long as the pledges are free to leave at any time, it’s ok with me to punish them physically, as long as no one assaults them. I still just can’t believe that MTV found a fraternity willing to do this stuff on TV.