# Muad'dib vs. Vader **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 5, 2000, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muaddib-vs-vader/28257 "2000-08-05T16:35:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Prosser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/cc9497/32.png) [@Prosser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prosser)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2000, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muaddib-vs-vader/28257/21 "2000-08-10T05:56:57Z")
IMHO, I gotta give it to Paul. It’s awful hard to beat a messiah figure. Just look at Luke (another messiah figure)–He beat Vader. Anyway, beyind literary devices, Paul wins one-on-one since (if I remeber correctly) the Muad-dib (sp?) can kill with a thought. Although, I have to say Vader was up there as a badass villian with anyone else in the movies. ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2000, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muaddib-vs-vader/28257/22 "2000-08-10T05:59:31Z")
Ah, but tracer, that’s where you’re wrong. The Force-choke doesn’t only affect a weak-minded person. The victim’s mind has nothing to do with it. Basically, he uses the force to either consrict the throat muscles or just stop air from going past his throat. Vader _can_ choke X-wing and Y-wing pilot…but which do you think he would find more fun, shooting or choking? As for using it on Obi-Wan…Obi-Wan could use a counter-force move to force air into his lungs anyways. It happened in one of the books, where a Dark Jedi tried to choke Luke (I think that’s what it was), and Luke did what I mentioned above. Vader does have the lightning stuff…anyone who is into the Dark Side of the force can use it (It’s mentioned in some of the books), I just think he likes his lightsaber and choking more. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2000, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muaddib-vs-vader/28257/23 "2000-08-10T06:00:40Z")
Hey **Prosser** , Looks like you also experienced that weird lag in the board. I never got to the “Thanks for posting…” screen. Instead I got the “Connection timed out” notice. But my post still appeared. Odd. ---
**Author:** ![Prosser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/cc9497/32.png) [@Prosser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prosser)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2000, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muaddib-vs-vader/28257/24 "2000-08-10T06:09:08Z")
Yea, sorry, I don’t really know what happened. Perhaps I was impatient. More than likely, my bad. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2000, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muaddib-vs-vader/28257/25 "2000-08-10T15:28:24Z")
I gotta say Vader, hands down. I mean, Paul almost loses to several mere mortals in the books. Sua ---
**Author:** ![DarkHeart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6de8d8/32.png) [@DarkHeart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DarkHeart)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2000, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muaddib-vs-vader/28257/26 "2000-08-10T15:48:07Z")
This is a very hard decision. Vader does have the choke,saber,lightning, and robotic implants. Muad-dib has the powers of a small god. But I would have to go with muad-dib. why? lets not forget his little sister. She is a bad ass in her own right. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2000, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muaddib-vs-vader/28257/27 "2000-08-10T20:07:23Z")
If Paul gets an assist from his little sister Alia, then Vader gets an assist from the Emperor. ---
**Author:** ![BjorkBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@BjorkBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BjorkBoy)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2000, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muaddib-vs-vader/28257/28 "2000-08-10T21:01:39Z")
Gotta give it to the kwitzach-haderach, personally. The whole universe-super-being thing tipped the scales. Plus he’s got the voice. It’s a rough choice, and I think if you’d said, Vader vs anyone else, I’d say vader (so ditto for paul, of course) **SuaSponte** : Um, Sting isn’t really a _mere_ mortal, when you compare to the other mortals people are fighting recently. I mean give the guy some credit! Besides, which scores more points, getting a beating from Mark Hammel (vader was gonna get it before they kissed and made up) or _beating the pants off_ Rock-Superstar Sting!? (ok the new album bites, but just take a look at MarkH’s career these days. yikes.) well, I just geeked out. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2000, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muaddib-vs-vader/28257/29 "2000-08-11T22:09:38Z")
BjorkBoy wrote: > [@](#): > > Gotta give it to the kwitzach-haderach, personally. The whole universe-super-being thing tipped the scales. Plus he’s got the voice. Hmmm … dark-side-of-the-force choke, versus the Voice. Tough call. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muaddib-vs-vader/28257/30 "2000-08-20T10:31:12Z")
Muad’dib could ride in on a Worm but Vader could ride in on a squadron of AT-ATs. And step on him presumably. ---
**Author:** ![Zarathustra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/898d66/32.png) [@Zarathustra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zarathustra)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muaddib-vs-vader/28257/31 "2000-08-20T19:19:51Z")
If you want to know who’s stronger–Muad’dib or Darth Vader–then imagine a contest between the _son_ of each hero? Can you imagine Luke Skywalker being body-slammed by Leto II? I can, and I enjoy the picture immensely. Try doing a Force chokehold on a 400-meter human/sandworm hybrid, blondie! ---
**Author:** ![Narile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@Narile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Narile)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2000, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muaddib-vs-vader/28257/32 "2000-08-21T06:51:29Z")
This one is a little more subtle for those with a penchant for science fiction… Teela Brown vs. either of them. (Assume she _wants_ to win.) ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2000, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muaddib-vs-vader/28257/33 "2000-08-21T11:11:23Z")
Well, Tracer has already been so kind to provide us a nice sum of Paul’s abilities… let’s see what Vader has going for him, hmmm…? Supposedly, he’s the most powerful Jedi (the plural for Jedi is… surprise!.. Jedi) in the galaxy. His only failure Force-wise has been in forcing his nearly-destroyed lungs to breath without his suit (a failure which haunted him to his death, if you believe _Shadows of the Empire_). He was the best pilot in the galaxy, if you believe Obi-Wan Kenobi. And he built C-3PO and the fastest podracer in the universe out of crap from a junkyard at the age of 9, if you believe George Lucas while on acid. His mere physical strength was such that he could easily toss a person around, and he had the powers of the Force behind him, making him even stronger/faster. The only reason Luke was able to counter Vaders’ power was because Luke was also trained in the ways of the Jedi. Paul is not. So this would not be a question of “attack/counterattack”, but a question of who’s attack hits first. Because, like the Enterprise vs. Star Destroyer debate, I believe that this would be a battle where the first shot is the only shot that counts. And, finally, there’s the issue of Power of the Public… Vader is the most (or second most, behind Boba Fett) popular figure from the entire Star Wars saga. With millions of Star Wars fans behind him, he’s more powerful than Bill Gates. Paul’s got some funky blue eyes and a very small (yet very loyal, admittedly) fan base. ---
**Author:** ![barton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@barton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barton)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2000, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muaddib-vs-vader/28257/34 "2000-08-21T17:07:06Z")
I’d have to say Vader, but it’s close. Physical - Vader is friggin’ huge, strong, fast, and carries possibly the most deadly and useful melee weapon in fiction. Paul is skinny, very fast, and tends to carry a crysknife with no shield. But he has had some excellent teachers in close-quarters combat, Gurney Halleck, etc, and everyone in Dune fears him (Stilgar seems convinced Paul could kill him in a blink with a knife, for example). Mental - Vader is (or was) the most powerful Jedi around, good or evil. He has immensely powerful telekenesis, chokes people at range, chucks huge objects around, etc. He can dominate lesser minds and look into the immediate future for combat purposes. Hell, he can block laser blasts with just his hands. Paul is the Ktwatz Haderach (horribly misspelled), a genetic demigod. He has a jacked-up version of the Bene Gesserit’s Voice, i.e. the ‘kill with a word’ power, has a superhuman amount of control over his body’s functions, and he can see into the future and the present in a limited fashion - more of a strategic power than Vader’s. All this said, I think Paul’s only hope against Vader is to use the Voice, ala a Lord Soth ‘Power Word Kill’. A knife is not adequate against a full-powered Jedi. Something tells me Vader would just go ‘Huhniggg’, shake his head, and cut the annoying little Fremen in two. Paul wasn’t invincible - he regarded the mysterious Count Fenring as someone who could kill him easily (although how the ugly, pudgy, yet charming Count could do this is a mystery - the Voice?) ---
**Author:** ![Val2K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/3da27b/32.png) [@Val2K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Val2K)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2000, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muaddib-vs-vader/28257/35 "2000-08-22T01:21:38Z")
What a time for me to have just reread Dune and Dune Messiah. Let’s weigh in the fighters: Duke/Padishah Emperor Paul/Usul/Muad’dib Atreides, aka Lisan al-Gaib/Umma Regent and leader of House Atreides, the Fremen, the Qizarate and the known universe (I just had to say all that) has some wicked prescience (assuming this is before the death of Chani), the Voice (just the thought of something like this scares me into a quick run to the bathroom), quick reflexes, and a personal shield. However, he has a penchant for not using his powers in a fight (example: Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen). Vader needs no explanation. Here’s what I see: Vader prepares to choke-hold Paul, but he _sees_ this and uses Voice to stop him. Vader pulls out his lightsaber and Paul his crysknife. Bye-bye crysknife. Paul activates his personal shield, not realizing that lightsabers utilize the same technology as lasguns and reacting too quickly to _see_ the impending. . . boom ---
**Author:** ![Kilgore\_Trout\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6de8d8/32.png) [@Kilgore\_Trout\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kilgore_Trout_1)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2000, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muaddib-vs-vader/28257/36 "2000-08-22T01:33:28Z")
> [@](#): > > . Just look at Luke (another messiah figure)–He beat Vader. when? and **Monster104** , don’t you know that so-called facts from star wars books aren’t worth beans? you can’t bring all the skills and abilities from the characters in those books into any star wars discussion. they aren’t star wars. i could write a book that allows vader to turn into an albatross. doesn’t make it so. and besides, the OP is asking about vader from the movies. man, i’m a dork. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2000, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muaddib-vs-vader/28257/37 "2000-08-22T15:40:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Narile \* > This one is a little more subtle for those with a penchant for science fiction… > > Teela Brown vs. either of them. (Assume she _wants_ to win.) Interesting, very interesting…Will the outcome of the fight affect the people of Ringworld as a whole? I think that it was eventually concluded that it was _their_ luck manipulating _her_. But if we’re going with the straight “luck of Teela Brown” from the first book…Teela wins, hands down, without ever seeing either of the other two. How? Vader: Poor little Anakin can’t quite fix his pod. It blows up, he dies. Or he loses the race, and is stranded on Tatooine until he dies. Paul: The political maneuvering behind the Caladan-\>Arrakis move falls through. Paul never realizes his potential as the Kwisatz Haderach. Or he gets to Dune, but doesn’t wake up in time to escape the hunter-sliver thingie. Their Grand Destinies are no match for her luck. ---
**Author:** ![Narile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@Narile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Narile)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2000, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muaddib-vs-vader/28257/38 "2000-08-23T06:57:41Z")
Balance, if it was concluded that the population of ringworlds luck was controling Teela, it must have been in Ringworld Throne since it wasn’t in Ringworld or Ringworld Engineers. Uh Kilgore, the _Star Wars_ books are generally considered canon with a few exceptions. This is because Lucas over sees them far more than Paramount does _Star Trek_. For instance, all the _Star Wars_ books written in the last three years are all said to be canon specifically. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2000, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muaddib-vs-vader/28257/39 "2000-08-23T14:16:35Z")
Spoiler warning for Ringworld trilogy! - - - - - - - I forget which book it was, precisely, but Teela’s true love died, she got turned into a childless protector, couldn’t protect her adoptees (the people of Ringworld), and she died–while the people of Ringworld were saved. That doesn’t sound too lucky to me; I think someone (Louis or the Hindmost?) speculated out loud about Teela being manipulated by the combined luck of the enormous population of Ringworld. Their luck brought her there and brought her Seeker so she’d stay, then made her a protector so that she’d be in a position to set the stage for Louis _et al_ to save them. ---
**Author:** ![Tymp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Tymp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tymp)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2000, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muaddib-vs-vader/28257/40 "2000-08-23T14:52:05Z")
Remember, Muad’dib does possess the ability to fold space. I’m not sure what the practical application of this would be in single combat, but Dunedude deserves props for that at least. The Vader long range choke is neutralized by Muad’dib’s complete mastery of his own body at the molecular level. It’s tough to make someone’s throat constrict if the individual molecules within the muscles will not cooperate. Muad’dib also mastered the Voice. This is not something to be discounted. Sure, the Jedi are skilled at resisting each other’s mind tricks, but the Voice is a bad ass new element to them. Also, if Vader gets to hurl random debris during combat, then Muad’dib gets to summon and control sandworms. I’m afraid Vader would just wet his electric pants and short himself out in such a situation. Muad’dib wins the belt. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muaddib-vs-vader/28257.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muaddib-vs-vader/28257.md?page=3)