# Muddying the message: Punk **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 24, 2002, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muddying-the-message-punk/99836 "2002-03-24T08:06:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![foxfiregrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3da27b/32.png) [@foxfiregrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foxfiregrrl)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2002, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muddying-the-message-punk/99836/21 "2002-03-25T02:57:49Z")
Punk is different now. You’ve just gotta chill and accept it. Back in the 70s and stuff, it’s was revolutionary, it was about social change, blah blah blah (I’m a young 'un, so I really can’t say I have first hand proof of it, but that’s what you guys say now) but you’ve just got to accept that it’s something different now. It’s not longer shocking, and therefore isn’t able to carry the ‘don’t give a fuck’ revolution. So now, what punk talks about is purely a style of music and a style of dress. Different groups (the preps, etc) have taken on certain elements of the punk dress style because, hey, it looks cool. Don’t get your panties in a twist over it, it’s just the way things are. Doesn’t mean you can’t be a ‘true punk’ on the inside. Doesn’t mean you can’t fight the system, question authority, and be loud and angry. Just means you have to accept that people might think you look good, rather than shocking, in your green hair and safety pins. [sub]The above is purely my opinion. I realize that since I’m young, I don’t have a real good perspective on all this. But, really, it’s a fucking shirt and visor. Get over it.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Hamadryad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6de8d8/32.png) [@Hamadryad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamadryad)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2002, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muddying-the-message-punk/99836/22 "2002-03-25T03:07:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by foxfiregrrl \* > \*\*Doesn’t mean you can’t fight the system, question authority, and be loud and angry. Just means you have to accept that people might think you look good, rather than shocking, in your green hair and safety pins. \*\* Totally, 100% perfect. Way better than I did. 😃 (applause over, nothing else to see here, move along.) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2002, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muddying-the-message-punk/99836/23 "2002-03-25T03:15:03Z")
Aw, you crazy kids with your punk and your music and your hair. Back in MY day, we wore an onion on our belts-as was the style back then…zzzzzzzzz ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2002, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muddying-the-message-punk/99836/24 "2002-03-25T03:40:12Z")
Punk… I have ceased to believe that word has, or has ever had, any actual meaning apart from whatever the speaker intends it to mean (which, even at that, doesn’t often reveal much). Sit down Minor Threat, Black Flagg, and DK in the same room and see if they can get a consensus on punk. Then toss in the Sex Pistols and the Mistfits and you might as well forget it. Punk, if anything, was a movement dedicated to being loud about something. Didn’t matter what, you just had to be loud. The music, the appearance, the behavior: it had to scream. As such, it is entirely open to crass commercialism. Check out DK’s “Anarchy for Sale” on _Bedtime for Democracy_. They knew it back then, too. 😉 I consider myself an ex-punk, sometimes a crusty punk, sometimes I just forget about it. I, too, missed “the golden age” of punk, but what did I really miss anyway? I don’t know. But, it was better than being a metal-head. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Junior\_Spaceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Junior\_Spaceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Junior_Spaceman)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2002, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muddying-the-message-punk/99836/25 "2002-03-25T03:45:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by black455 \* > \*\*Good on **Spence** , as usual. Especially if he’s got any original domestic Celibate Rifles pressings he’s willing to part with. \*\* Not only did you say something nice in the pit, not only did you say it in a _punk rock thread_, but you tried to weasel some obscure Aussie records out of me. Now **that’s** punk. BTW, I don’t have any old C.R. records, but I’ll send you my ‘Ex Pistols’ 12" in exchange for a couple of packets of Hershey’s Peanut Butter Cups (impossible to find here). It’s a heck of a bad record, but it’s a Sex Pistols knockoff name like the Rifles ;). ---
**Author:** ![Kyomara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8edcca/32.png) [@Kyomara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyomara)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2002, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muddying-the-message-punk/99836/26 "2002-03-25T03:54:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by red\_dragon60 \* > **I guess my real problem is that it is (or was) a real social movement that had real consequences that is now being used as a marketing tool.** Your problem is that you are a tool. Or at least, you were when you wrote that lame-ass rant. What difference does it make what other people wear? Do you remember when Catholics got all upset about George Michael turning the cross into a fashion accessory? See what I’m getting at? Hmmmm? Listen to music. Listen to what you like no matter what anyone else says, _especially_ fuckwits who would put you down for listening to “sell-outs” or anything too “mainstream.” [yoda]Then, and only then, a punk-rocker will you be.[/yoda] ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2002, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muddying-the-message-punk/99836/27 "2002-03-25T08:44:12Z")
Punk’s not dead It just deserves to die When it becomes another stale cartoon A close-minded, self-centered social club Ideas don’t matter, it’s who you know If the music’s gotten boring It’s because of the people Who want everyone to sound the same Who drive bright people out Of our so-called scene 'Til all that’s left Is just a meaningless fad Hardcore formulas are dogshit Change and caring are what’s real Is this a state of mind Or just another label? The joy and hope of an alternative Has become its own cliche A hairstyle’s not a lifestyle Imagine Sid Vicious at 35 Who needs a scene Scared to love and to feel Judging everything By loud fast rules appeal Who played last night? ‘I don’t know, I forgot. But diving off the stage Was a lot of fun.’ So eager to please Peer pressure decrees So eager to please Peer pressure decrees Make the same old mistakes Again and again Chickenshit conformist Like your parents What’s ripped us apart even more than drugs Are the thieves and the goddamn liars Flipping people off when they share their stuff When someone falls are there any friends? Harder core than thou for a year or two Then it’s time to get a real job Others stay home, it’s no fun to go out When the gigs are wrecked by gangs and thugs When the thugs form bands, look who gets record deals From New York metal labels looking to scam Who sign the most racist queerbashing bands they can find To make a buck revving kids up for war Walk tall, act small Only as tough as gang approval Unity is bullshit When it’s under someone’s fat boot Where’s the common cause? Too many factions Safely sulk in their shells Agree with us on everything Or we won’t help with anything That kind of attitude Just makes a split grow wider Guess who’s laughing while the world explodes When we’re all crybabies Who fight best among ouselves So eager to please Peer pressure decrees So eager to please Peer pressure decrees Make the same old mistakes Again and again Chickenshit conformist Like your parents That farty old rock and roll attitude’s back ‘It’s competition, man, we wanna break big.’ Who needs friends when the money’s good? That’s right, the 70s are back. Cock-rock metal’s like a bad laxative It just don’t move me, ya know? The music’s OK when there’s more ideas than solos Do we really need the attitude too? Shedding thin skin too quickly As a fan it disappoints me Same old stupid sexist lyrics Or is Satan all you can think of? Crossover is just another word For lack of ideas Maybe what we need Are more trolls under the bridge Will the metalheads finally learn something Or will the punks throw away their education? No one’s ever the best Once they believe their own press ‘Maturing’ don’t mean rehashing Mistakes of the past So eager to please Peer pressure decrees So eager to please Peer pressure decrees Make the same old mistakes Again and again Chickenshit conformist Like your parents The more things change The more they stay the same We can’t grow When we won’t criticize ourselves The 60s weren’t all failure It’s the 70s that stunk As the clock ticks we dig the same hole Music scenes ain’t real life They won’t get rid of the bomb Won’t eliminate rape Or bring down the banks Any kind of real change Takes more time and work Than changing channels on a TV set So why are we So eager to please Peer pressure decrees So eager to please Peer pressure decrees Make the same old mistakes Again and again Chickenshit conformist Like your parents. “Chickenshit Conformist” By DK BTW, The OP amused me no end. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2002, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muddying-the-message-punk/99836/28 "2002-03-25T11:21:13Z")
> [@](#): > > If you’re a true punk, you’ll piss off everybody in the system. If you’re wearing something ablazoned with PUNK to seem counterculture, you’re stupid. Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken. that day punk became elitist and exclusionary was the day punk died. Please tell me your not one of the “sell out” crowd. If you got a chance to make a decent living out of what you love to do, you would JUMP at the chance, regardless of wether you’re “Selling out” or not. ---
**Author:** ![hardygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@hardygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hardygrrl)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2002, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muddying-the-message-punk/99836/29 "2002-03-25T12:58:48Z")
This thread inspired a conversation between me and another Doper. We both work for major corporations. We both have the _appearance_ of the typical drone. But we still listen to the music and still support the scene, just with **our** money and not our parents. It’s what’s inside, not what you wear. ---
**Author:** ![red\_dragon60](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ce73a5/32.png) [@red\_dragon60](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/red_dragon60)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2002, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muddying-the-message-punk/99836/30 "2002-03-25T13:20:28Z")
Francesca, there really isn’t a message in there. He’s just pretty odd, and I thought that was about the funniest thing I’ve heard in a while. And waterj2, nice reference to McLuhan. However, the title is actually “The medium is the _massage_.” Suprised me when I first noticed that. > **[The Medium is the Massage: McLuhan, Marshall, Fiore, Quentin, Fairey, Shepard:...](https://www.amazon.com/Medium-Massage-Marshall-McLuhan/dp/1584230703)** > > The Medium is the Massage \[McLuhan, Marshall, Fiore, Quentin, Fairey, Shepard\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. The Medium is the Massage And actually, I do have green hair 🙂 But because a hot girl asked me to dye it again. How’s that for sell-out 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kayeby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de0a6/32.png) [@Kayeby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kayeby)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2002, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muddying-the-message-punk/99836/31 "2002-03-25T13:39:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by red\_dragon60 \* > \*\*And waterj2, nice reference to McLuhan. However, the title is actually “The medium is the _massage_.” Suprised me when I first noticed that. > > [http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1584230703/qid=1017062161/sr=8-1/ref=sr\_8\_3\_1/103-6576642-5161433](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1584230703/qid=1017062161/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_3_1/103-6576642-5161433) \*\* Eh? I think **waterj2** is correct. The title of the book (and documentary IIRC) is a play on McLuhan’s widely-recognised phrase: “the medium is the message”, originally from his book “Understanding Media”. ---
**Author:** ![pezpunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@pezpunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pezpunk)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2002, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muddying-the-message-punk/99836/32 "2002-03-25T13:48:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by White Lightning \* > \*\*Does anyone know if I can take back **pezpunk** ’s take-back of his low blow? I am too friggin nice for the pit. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2002, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muddying-the-message-punk/99836/33 "2002-03-25T14:33:27Z")
well…what if someone starts a pit thread saying Pez suck?😉 ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2002, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muddying-the-message-punk/99836/34 "2002-03-25T14:34:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kayeby \* > \*\* Eh? I think **waterj2** is correct. The title of the book (and documentary IIRC) is a play on McLuhan’s widely-recognised phrase: “the medium is the message”, originally from his book “Understanding Media”. \*\* That’s true. It’s one of the most famous phrases ever uttered by a Canadian, the other one being “generation X” (Douglas Coupland). As for TV, I just think the tedium is the message. ---
**Author:** ![pezpunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@pezpunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pezpunk)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2002, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muddying-the-message-punk/99836/35 "2002-03-25T15:34:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*well…what if someone starts a pit thread saying Pez suck?😉 \*\* Everyone is entitled to their opinion I suppose. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2002, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muddying-the-message-punk/99836/36 "2002-03-25T17:04:07Z")
Isn’t the phrase “generation X” itself much older, though it was used to mean something different? Not that this would stop me from rating Coupland’s book as my favorite ever, nor Coupland as my favorite author, but truth is beauty and all that. pan ---
**Author:** ![lexi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lexi/32/6806_2.png) [@lexi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lexi)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2002, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muddying-the-message-punk/99836/37 "2002-03-25T17:35:31Z")
Checking in as another old punk (mid to late 80’s punk). I have to admit the commercialization disturbs me, but every generation has had thier movement co-opted and mainstreamed. I have friends that are older than I am and were around in the late 70’s and early 80’s - and even in that time there were those into punk for the fashion, or the girls who wanted to date a bad boy. I have in my own memories people who I considered fashion punks (Buying the most fashionable punk looking clothes), red necks with mohawks, groupies & sluts who didn’t care about punk (only that the guy was in a band or was a bad boy), weekend punks (ones who looked like that 80’s show girl), try-hards and posers with brank new levis they had torn with razor blades the day before, as well as those who were what I would call punk, and most of those who I would have considered real punks, didn’t have a look - they just were. I had a mohawk once myself, and more hair colors than I could count. The scene I knew was like that - some people with the look some who looked pretty normal. But really what was and is punk? The commonality was a dislike or out right hate of the establishment, the music and that we were not quiet about it. Most of the punks I knew didn’t fit into normal society - either by choice or by design. Some were socialists, some anarchists, some even fasists - those punks I knew, most of them still hold the same beliefs, and still aren’t quiet about it - but we look pretty normal. What happened? We grew up, and watched some of our friends live & die in excess - the drugs and the pain over whelmed them. And now, punk is a label, a brand almost. A bunch of the bands I used to listen to have re-united to go on tour and it is easier to find good music. Things I do mind: Blink 182, Offspring, Green Day (This isn’t punk - it is commercial pop played a bit harder and slapped with a label of punk). Some re-united bands like DK are just a commercial enterprize and knowing jello is not a part of it - I wouldn’t go see them. But - at this age I do get nostalgic for my youth and I am glad to see that I can buy on CD stuff that I though I had lost forever because my LPs were so scratched that they weren’t worth keeping. I am glad I may get to see some bands I haven’t seen in 10 or more years. I don’t mind sharing this with the kids today. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2002, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muddying-the-message-punk/99836/38 "2002-03-26T02:55:26Z")
From the OP: > [@](#): > > \*\* > Punk music and attitude are supposed to be underground, harsh and radical. Not something to sell clothing. \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gex gex \* > \*\* > > can anyone say _malcolm mclaren_? > > **sex** was the store’s name, right? \*\* McLaren recognized a trend **while** he was selling clothing, then abandoned selling clothing in order to further (and capitalize on) that trend. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2002, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muddying-the-message-punk/99836/39 "2002-03-26T03:49:44Z")
\*\* > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Kayeby_ > Eh? I think waterj2 is correct. The title of the book (and documentary IIRC) is a play on McLuhan’s widely-recognised phrase: “the medium is the message”, originally from his book “Understanding Media”. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > That’s true. It’s one of the most famous phrases ever uttered by a Canadian, the other one being “generation X” (Douglas Coupland). > > As for TV, I just think the tedium is the message. \*\* Nope. The quote is “the medium is the message,” but the _book_ is [“The Medium is the M **a** ssage.”](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1584230703/qid=1017114144/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_3_1/002-7273416-6316853) Which, incidentally, is the same link that was in **red\_dragon60** ’s post. ---
**Author:** ![Kayeby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de0a6/32.png) [@Kayeby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kayeby)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2002, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muddying-the-message-punk/99836/40 "2002-03-26T03:56:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*\*\*Nope. The quote is “the medium is the message,” but the _book_ is [“The Medium is the M **a** ssage.”](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1584230703/qid=1017114144/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_3_1/002-7273416-6316853) > > Which, incidentally, is the same link that was in **red\_dragon60** ’s post. \*\* Um, isn’t that what I said? 😕 **waterj2** was referring to the original quote, but **red\_dragon60** mistakenly thought that he was referring to the book, so I popped in to quickly correct him. Now you’re correcting me and, um, I’m not quite sure why. _bites nails in confuzzlement_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muddying-the-message-punk/99836.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muddying-the-message-punk/99836.md?page=3)