Your what? Your ancestors used to bail people out of jail? What the hell is that supposed to mean?
Not to pick on Colibri, but his post captures all that grates on me about the confusion surrounding “African-American”.
The more technically correct label for them would be South African-Americans. Africa is a continent, not a country. Usually the hyphenated descriptor refers to nationality, as in Irish-American, Polish-American, etc. A person (regardless of color) who immigrates to the states from an African country would go by their former nationality. Dave Matthews, for instance, would be a South African-American. So would Nelson Mandela (if he were to immigrate to the States).
The descendants of African slaves do not follow the same pattern when it comes to ethnic identification because all that is obvious is that they come from Africa.
Why are their ties to Guyana forgotten, but not their ties to Ireland? Wouldn’t the kids be called Guyanian-Americans just as they would be called Irish-Americans?
Can they identify the countries or regions that they were born in, much as you did for Russia and Transylvania?
According to Askia’s post, no.
How nice to be able to know which country, whether or not you, personally, have any use for that knowledge.
Of course they can, they were born there. I am not really a “Russian-Transylvanian-American,” of course. I was born here. I’m a Native-American.
Oh, please, Eve. I’m black and I don’t find “African-American” condescending. It is just a label, and compared to all the other labels that have been heaped upon black folks, it is one of the most innocuous.
Where in Africa were they born? I find your treatment of Africa as one big, monolithic country, lacking in the diversity that characterizes other continents of nations, much more condescending than the label you decry. Read my post above. Pat and Nikki are no more African-American than Celine Dion is North American-American.
Please again. This has nothing to do with color. Seal is no more an Affrican-American than Dave Mattews is.
See above.
Glad to see that when it comes to labeling yourself, you see the folly in saying “European-American”. Now apply that to people who come from Africa.
So, why don’t they use those countries before the hyphen?
Every person from Africa regardless of their skin colour (that I know) use their country of origin as a descriptor, then American. I.E Sudanese-American, or Ghana-American. This also occurs in “blacks” from other colonized nations, i.e Haitian-American or Cuban-American. The reason why is because they have a culture that is unique to their place of origin, they get to choose what to keep and what to let go. The African Slaves on the other hand, had no choice.
No one is demanding that ALL people who have a drop of African blood call themselves African-Americans; or be denied the ability to do so if they want too; to suggest such is a simply wrong.
The reason why AMERICAN “blacks” use the general African-American discriptor is because they will never know where in Africa they came from. Your friends KNOW where they come from, is they decide tomorrow to have a traditional West Indian event, they have the CHOICE to do so. Most Americans, that are decended from African Slaves are only guessing and West Africa is a big place.
Now that may not be important to some people, however i doubt many of us would ask whether an person who calls himself an Irish-American or Polish-American or an Italian-American or all the myriads of hypened Americans give up their desire to descibe themselves as such; even if they haven’t seen their homeland in 200 years and are no more Irish, than I am African.
So what’s the big deal, when African-Americans do it?
Why? assuming we both know both Treys, it would be the Trey who works at starbucks, or the Trey into metal, or the Trey you were out with last week. What does color have to come into it for? They have interests that surpass simple color, and since the 4 of us share other interests, I know that the Trey from Starbucks likes jazz and not metal, so the Trey you met at the Rammstein concert is probably not the Trey who I go and see a Brubeck cover artist with. Or as simple as the Trey who lives in Philadelphia as opposed to the Trey from Berkley, or the Trey who lives in Greenwich Village as opposed to Tribeca. mrAru and I know 2 Max, one is in the SCA, the other isnt, so the Max the executioner is different from Other Max [and yes we call him the other Max]
I gotta agree with the Eve; there’s something odd going on when co-workers, one white who who was born in South Africa, whose family has lived there for centuries, and another, a black naturalized citizen from Sierra Leone, are somehow less “African” than a black American whose closest acquaintance with the African continent is watching Tarzan movies on DVD. And what about the naturalized citizen from Jamaica? Where does she fit in?
gobear why is this so hard to understand? No one, no one is saying that people who are native born Africans are less African than the decendants of African slaves in America. What I’m saying is that in the real world, native born Africans regardless of their skin color, refer to their nation of origin when they describe themselves; not the generic Africa, because they don’t HAVE to. They know they are from South Africa or Sierra Leone and refer to themselves as such. They have an option that the decendants of African slaves in America no longer have.
This doesn’t affect Jamaicans, Cubans, Haitians etc…because they have a culture that developed beyond the roots of their colonial days and is based on their country of origin. They aren’t African-Americans because their family were never slaves in America.
This isn’t a matter of skin color, but of geography and history. Sure any person from Africa can call themselves an African-American, the same as a person from Italy could call themselves a Euro-American; it just doesn’t happen. They don’t need to make a general statement of origin for a known fact.
Except I don’t know any black people who call themselves"African-American." My black friends think it’s a silly term foisted on them by the P.C. Squad.
Oh, and I can’t prove that one side of my family was from Kiev, because they were all massacred by the Nazis, plowed into pits, and the Jewish cemetery paved over and turned into a soccer stadium.
. . . Oh, I’m sorry, weren’t we playing Can You Top This?
Then they don’t have to use that to describe themselves. No one’s forcing them to. I don’t see why you care if someone whose ancestor was an African slave in America, feels more comfortable calling themselves African-American, as opposed to Black-American or Negro and that term is embraced by the public at large, as Negro was and black still is.
Right and if you decided to call yourself a Jewish-American, I wouldn’t consider that a silly term foisted on you by the P.C. Squad… would you?
No, but I can point out that it’s the exact same argument as the one made by those people who say “I’m not ‘homophobic.’ I’m not scared of gays. And that’s what ‘phobia’ means - scared. I just vote against them, treat them like dirt, make nasty jokes about them, and bash them when I think I can get away with it. But gay people aren’t frightening, just disgusting - so I’m not ‘homophobic’”
It’s the same disingenuous argument.
One thing on this PC label. I fail to see why a group of people who have been defined by others and decide to define themselves is PC? It sure as hell wasn’t PC, when African-Americans starting referring to themselves as Black and not colored or negro.
So I don’t see why this same group which is not monolithic by any means, decides that African-American is the correct term now, is now PC. I confess I don’t get it.
My mother tells tales of in the late 50’s, early sixties when some African-Americans didn’t like being called “black” and preferred being called colored or even negro. However the term colored fell out of favour and black was the socially accepted term…now it’s African-American; perhaps one day it’ll just be American.
Why is this PC and why isn’t Jewish-American not?
No. Depending on where they were born, their kids are either American-born citizens whose mother is likely a South African Boer, or South African born citizens whose father is American. I disagree somewhat with the other posters who say that they are South African Americans… that’s not a complete ethnic descriptor because it might not adequately describe their father’s ethnic identity. Assuming you and your brother and sister all share the same parents, Colibri, it might be more accurate to describe your brother’s kids as South African Irish Americans. Or if you strive for simplicity like I do, you could call 'em “squirts.”
No. Again, the confusion of citizenship and ethnicity. They are the children of an American mother and an Guyanan immigrant father. Their father is an African. Their mother is Irish-American. They are Americans whose lineage is both. They are not African-Americans. They are more accurately described as Irish-Guyanan-American, IMO.
Again, we disagree regarding the vagueness and accuracy of the term “African-American”. Pat and Nikki are Africans from a specific (unnamed) country-- expatriates, immigrants. They are probably not African-Americans because, being white, they do not sound as if they are descended of black African slaves in America. If they themselves are of the opinion they are African-Americans, they may wish to review their backgrounds and reconsider. Feel free to use this post as a guide. It sounds like somebody’s a bit confused. Terry and Hugues sound like your regular, run-of-the-mill French and West Indian immigrants, too. Cubans, Trinis, Haitians, Dominicans, Brazillians, Jamaicians and Panamanians may all share obvious African origins in terms of race, but in terms of ethnicity they are NOT African-Americans and frequently will be the first to tell you so.
Eve, just because your black friends don’t call themselves African-Americans in casual conversation doesn’t NECESSARILY mean they hold the term in as much obvious contempt as you seem to. You might also be interested to know the Black nationalist term Afro-American from which African-American is derived, has been around since the turn of the 20th century and is not the fetid product of some imaginary PC Squad.
Not all political correctness is foolishness.
Bondsman, incidentally, is a historic term for a black male slave.
Where has anyone said a African white is less African than a African black? A naturalized citizen from Jamaica would be called an Jamaican-American. A white Nigerian would be called a Nigerian-American. So would a black Nigerian! Forget about color and focus on nationality. When you do, you’ll be amazed at how simple things become.
Eve:
There is nothing PC about “African-American”. It was not invented to replace “black.” It is just a short-hand way of referring to people who descend from American slaves. “Black” doesn’t have the specificity that A-A does. Get. Over. It.
No, we’re playing the Enough With The Pointless Bitching About “African-American” game. It’s really fun, too!
Damn Straight!
Who said the term “Jewish-American” isn’t ridiculous? Just because my ancestors were Jews doesn’t mean I am.
No one has addressed “Native-American,” by the way, which I think is the more misleading of the terms. If our magazine feels the need to point out someone’s ancestry, I tell them to do them the courtesy of finding out what tribe they were from: Navaho? Cree? Sioux?
My friend Terry doesn’t feel he is African-American because he was born in America and his family lived in the British West Indies for generations; yet people insist on calling him African-American.
My friend Pat, who was born in Africa, and is now an American citizen, is jeered at if she refes to herself as African-American.
Just pointin’ out, most of these terms are vague and meaningless. Hell, so are “black” and “white”–how many of us are actually black or white?
Right, Eve. The misuse of the term is ignorant. The term itself is fine.
I haven’t addressed the term “Native American” because I’m not nearly as familiar with who the term is supposed to apply to, its origins or its history and why you feel it’s wrong. Suppose you tell us why you think its inaccurate and we can start from there.
Whoa. Just re-read that first senetence of your last post.
I always thought of Judiaism as a faith and a distinct ethnic culture. Can you repudiate the religion and the ethnic identity as well? Shit, I guess I’ve spent my whole life romanticizing and trying to embrace a lost culture and ethnic identity that I never really thought about “The Human Stain” aspect of it, and not claiming it at all.
… why aren’t you Jewish, Eve?