# Multiculturalism - a no brainer **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 16, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971 "2011-03-16T22:34:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![scamartistry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@scamartistry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scamartistry)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/1 "2011-03-16T22:34:57Z")
Im writing this from a European perspective, I dont know how the climate is in the US. Anyway there is almost dogma in Europe (especially in the mass-media) that multiculturalism is something everybody should strive for. Personally I am not convinced of this, at all. Now my question is ,not so much if it is a good thing or not. But why is it so controversial to be against this ideal? It is almost that you are labeled a racist if you think otherwise. Is this based on anything, is there any evidence that multicultural societies work better? What is this notion based on. For the record: Nothing against immigration in principle, I am myself an immigrant. Still I dont think multiculturalism is the solution. Assimilation I think is they key where a homogenous society is something to work for. Key question: Where is the evidence that an MC society works better than a homogenous society? to me it seems purely emotionally based. What are the pros, really? you can still let people immigrate into a country, but they would have to assimilate (sorry if my english sucks) ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/2 "2011-03-16T23:10:19Z")
Japan’s lack of looting & orderly response to the recent disaster is a good example of the value of **rejecting** multiculturalism. As John Derbyshire notes: > [@](#): > > Population genetics, as it affects those parts of the nervous system involved in social behavior, together with geography and a long common history, predisposed the Japanese to strong ethnonationalism and social stability in a well-organized and well-supervised hierarchical order. Under premodern conditions this did not preclude intracommunal violence under codes widely understood and enforced; but in the affluent post-WW2 world, with good standards of health and education, and under imposed consensual government following certain highly salutary experiences, these old factors directed the Japanese to an exceptionally high level of nonviolent social cohesion and intense but benign racial-national consciousness. > **[People Want to Know, cont’d | National Review](https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/people-want-know-contd-john-derbyshire/)** > > Strewth — 61 comments? I really wasn’t trying for the comment-thread gold there. You never know what will get people excited. I’ll try to deal with some of the points raised by commenters. Sloppy g… ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/3 "2011-03-16T23:14:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Where is the evidence that an MC society works better than a homogenous society? It’s an ideological position, not an evidence based position: > [@](#): > > It was not the kind of message a Harvard seminar expects to hear. Ethnic diversity causes a lot of problems, our guest speaker told us. It reduces interpersonal trust, civic engagement, and charitable giving. It causes us to disengage from society, like turtles shrinking into their shells, reducing our overall quality of life. The more diversity we experience in our lives, the less happy we are. > > Putnam told us he had been fairly certain the correlation would go away once other factors were taken into account. But it didn’t. He entered a long list of control variables into regression analyses that predict elements of social capital such as neighborly trust and civic participation. Many factors—especially younger age, less education, and higher poverty and crime rates—seem to damage community relations. But none of these factors could explain the robust, negative relationship between ethnic diversity and social capital. Sounding almost defeated, Putnam told us that ethnic diversity is not merely correlated with certain community problems—it causes them… > > When Robert Putnam came to my class five years ago, he presented some surprising and provocative results. But even more surprising is that his findings, public for at least two years, have generated so little substantive discussion among policymakers. The challenge that ethnic diversity poses to 21st century communities is significant, and meeting that challenge requires robust public discussion and debate. That discussion should include not just how we deal with the diversity of our current population, but how we can ensure future diversity causes as little harm as possible. Selecting intelligent immigrants is the smart way to begin. [http://www.american.com/archive/2009/august/dealing-with-diversity-the-smart-way](http://www.american.com/archive/2009/august/dealing-with-diversity-the-smart-way) ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/4 "2011-03-16T23:14:22Z")
…you need to define what version of multiculturalism you are talking about first. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/5 "2011-03-17T00:23:14Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Japan’s lack of looting & orderly response to the recent disaster is a good example of the value of **rejecting** multiculturalism. And Japan and Nazi Germany’s behavior during WWII demonstrates the other side of rejecting other cultures. As does the ruthlessness of the European imperial age. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/6 "2011-03-17T00:43:09Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Japan’s lack of looting & orderly response to the recent disaster is a good example of the value of **rejecting** multiculturalism. As John Derbyshire notes: You don’t need multiculturalism if your population is homogeneous. [https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ja.html](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ja.html) > [@](#): > > Ethnic groups: Japanese 98.5% It also helps if you have a rigid society and an authoritarian history stretching back centuries. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/7 "2011-03-17T00:59:01Z")
> [@scamartistry](#): > > Im writing this from a European perspective, I dont know how the climate is in the US. > > Anyway there is almost dogma in Europe (especially in the mass-media) that multiculturalism is something everybody should strive for. Personally I am not convinced of this, at all. Now my question is ,not so much if it is a good thing or not. But why is it so controversial to be against this ideal? It is almost that you are labeled a racist if you think otherwise. Is this based on anything, is there any evidence that multicultural societies work better? What is this notion based on… > > Key question: Where is the evidence that an MC society works better than a homogenous society? to me it seems purely emotionally based. What are the pros, really? you can still let people immigrate into a country, but they would have to assimilate (sorry if my english sucks) The dogmas of social liberalism cannot be defended rationally, so they are defended with invective, and politically correct censorship. Those questioning those dogmas are not answered. They are shouted down. Sometimes they lose their jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/8 "2011-03-17T01:02:02Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The dogmas of social liberalism cannot be defended rationally, so they are defended with invective, and politically correct censorship. Those questioning those dogmas are not answered. They are shouted down. Sometimes they lose their jobs. Agreed. No one in the US is more oppressed then straight white men. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/9 "2011-03-17T01:02:09Z")
Japan’s current situation appears to be based more on a nearly uniform standard of living than on any specific cultural traits. Until someone actually studies the situation, all the claims about Japanese culture preventing looting are simply politically inspired wild assed guesses. As to one question of the OP: it is not so much that one is racist if one does not embrace multiculturalism as it is that too many opponents of multiculturalism have been racists or employed racist arguments in their opposition. Those opponents have become lightning rods for the arguments of proponents of multiculturalism and some of the bad feeling spills over onto others who are considered to be “fellow travellers” of the racists. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/10 "2011-03-17T01:03:04Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The dogmas of social liberalism cannot be defended rationally, so they are defended with invective, and politically correct censorship. Those questioning those dogmas are not answered. They are shouted down. You mean, sort of like the post I am quoting? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/11 "2011-03-17T01:08:43Z")
Multiculturalism has many different meanings as it is commonly used that range from simple common courtesy based “sensitivity to other cultural norms” to “belief in the intrinsic equality of all cultures” with stops at all points in between. How is it meant in the OP? The huge backlash over the [Asians in the Library](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoLLEZlpUxk)viral video has been causing the word multiculturalism to be used in media a lot for the last few days. I’m not at all sure what the term means when some people use it: is “disrespectful of multiculturalism” another way of saying racist or is it referring to something on a bigger scale? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/12 "2011-03-17T01:08:50Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You mean, sort of like the post I am quoting? 😛 Can you say “psychological projection”? Social liberalism is easy to defend rationally; it’s the other side that can’t do so, and tends to try to shout down opponents. Or kill them. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/13 "2011-03-17T01:10:53Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You mean, sort of like the post I am quoting? 😛 I do not consider your comment to be a flame attack, but flaming is prohibited here. On other internet forums I have been flamed for questioning the liberal dogma that race is only a social construct, and that any racial differences that are not cosmetic are due exclusively to differing environments, and somehow the fault of white malevolence. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/14 "2011-03-17T01:13:48Z")
I’m hoping someone will swoop in with some cites here, but I’m almost certain that the assimilation thing is a red herring, since it turns out that assimilation happens even in the most multicultural of societies without any intentional poking or prodding within the course of just two generations. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/15 "2011-03-17T01:16:53Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Can you say “psychological projection”? Social liberalism is easy to defend rationally; it’s the other side that can’t do so, and tends to try to shout down opponents. Or kill them. When has someone lost his job or gotten into any trouble at all for maintaining that race is only a social construct, that rapists are not motivated by sexual desire, or that most Roman Catholic pedophile priests who abuse boys are not homosexuals? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/16 "2011-03-17T01:17:05Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > I do not consider your comment to be a flame attack, but flaming is prohibited here. On other internet forums I have been flamed for questioning the liberal dogma that race is only a social construct, and that any racial differences that are not cosmetic are due exclusively to differing environments, and somehow the fault of white malevolence. Because historically, people claiming such things have been both malevolent and either liars or deluded. And because race _is_ an artificial construct, like it or not. Why should anyone believe that your particular set of racial categories just happens to reflect reality? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/17 "2011-03-17T01:38:32Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > I do not consider your comment to be a flame attack, but flaming is prohibited here. On other internet forums I have been flamed for questioning the liberal dogma that race is only a social construct, and that any racial differences that are not cosmetic are due exclusively to differing environments, and somehow the fault of white malevolence. You are the one who posted a fairly virulent claim that people you opposed were virulent in defense of their positions. I merely noted the irony. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/18 "2011-03-17T01:38:56Z")
I find the older immigrants tend to want to assimilate more than the younger ones. When I worked in H/R, one of the oddest complaints I got was that we gave H/R instruction, to the workers in Spanish and Polish. The older Spanish and Polish people almost to 100% told me that it was a waste to do that and the younger ones should be learning English. It wasn’t a hard core complaint but more like an observation how the older people felt they needed to assimilate and learn English. The younger ones were like, “Why can’t Americans learn our language” I was raised by parents form Yugoslavia in America and I was the only non-bilingual member of my family as my parents thought it was important that I speak English properly without any accent, so they refused to allow anything but English toward me. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/19 "2011-03-17T01:43:16Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > I do not consider your comment to be a flame attack, but flaming is prohibited here. On other internet forums I have been flamed for questioning the liberal dogma that race is only a social construct, and that any racial differences that are not cosmetic are due exclusively to differing environments, and somehow the fault of white malevolence. I will also note that you have never “questioned” that race is a social construct on this message board. You have indicated that you do not share that view, but you have never actually posted anything to support your apparent contention that race is something other than a social construct. This is not the thread in which to do it, but you really have never provided a reason for anyone else to accept your already biologically disproven beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Borzo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/43a26b/32.png) [@Borzo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Borzo)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/20 "2011-03-17T02:10:17Z")
Being against multiculturism implies you believe some cultures are better than others. There is no doubt that many measures would suggest to confirm this idea… the problem is: who gets to decide and what measure do they use. As a way of copping out and not having to perform this judgement, many prefer to just avoid the question and suggest that all cultures are “equally good”. This leads to a belief that multiculturism is also good. I listen to the British PM’s talk a couple weeks back, and I mostly agree with it. I assume you have listened to it too. What was your opinion on the things he addressed? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971.md?page=2)