# Multiculturalism - a no brainer **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 16, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971 "2011-03-16T22:34:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/61 "2011-03-17T21:43:07Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > I brought up Mao and Stalin because Der Trihs brought up Hitler, the point being that Hitlerizing a thread is every bit as silly as Stalinizing or Mao-izing a thread. Not when someone like Hitler is the logical endpoint of the beliefs being pushed. Are we supposed to pretend he didn’t exist, now? > [@Lobohan](#): > > I’m sorry, in the universe based in reality the one making the assertion has to support it. How many death threats does Obama get? It went up by 400% from the previous President, not surprisingly since the Right is composed of bigots and thugs. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/62 "2011-03-17T22:45:59Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > I brought up Mao and Stalin because Der Trihs brought up Hitler, the point being that Hitlerizing a thread is every bit as silly as Stalinizing or Mao-izing a thread. There are far too many progs who arbitrarily link Hitler to any idea they don’t like. However, the point Der Trihs made is actually supported by your knee-jerk reaction. Mao, significantly, and Stalin, to the point of excess, promoted monocultural societies just as Hitler did and just as Japan experienced historically. Jumping up and down and yelling “commies” every time the WWII Axis powers are mentioned does nothing except note that the world includes a lot of evil. In the context of this discussion, Hitler, Mao, and Stalin are firmly on the same side with the suppression of anything that did not coincide with the particular culture that they espoused. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/63 "2011-03-17T23:36:59Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > As I posted in another thread, there are counter-examples that clearly demonstrate this is incorrect. > > Take the matter of blackouts. In the 1970s, NYC experienced a major blackout, leading to widespread looting, rioting, etc. In 2004, a goodly bit of the NE of North America experienced a major blackout (including my own city of Toronto - said to be ‘the most multicultural city in the world’) - and there was no looting, no rioting. The population pulled together, much as in Japan. > > Now, a blackout obviously isn’t anywhere near as serious as an earthquake/tsunami, but that’s not the point - as a trigger for looting and rioting, it is even better. More stuff to steal for one, and people are not shell-shocked by the disaster for another. The police are rendered relatively impotent by a lack of power at night, alarms don’t work, no lights, etc. all aid the criminals. > > The relative lack of looting and rioting in 2004 cannot be explained by a lack of “multiculturalism”. As stated, Toronto is extremely “multicultural”, and NYC - which did experience rioting under the same circumstances in the 1970s - has not grown less “multicultural” since then! That’s due to several factors. Most importantly the largest minorities in Toronto (South Asians and Chinese) are materially wealthier and culturally more prone to working together and obeying the law as compared to the blacks and Puerto Ricans who were New York’s largest minorities. This is not saying that blacks or Puerto Ricans are _racially_ inferior merely that their cultural practices and their economic conditions make them more likely to break the law such as in this case looting. Leading into this, I will say that I am an unabashed \*cultural \*supremacist and for humanity to flourish and thrive we need Western civilization to triumph moderated by East Asian (especially Confucian) concepts. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/64 "2011-03-17T23:41:03Z")
> [@Borzo](#): > > … I live in a very metropolitan city. There are people who immigrated here in ~1900. They then had children that were born here. I’ve met some of those children who are now 60+, and some of them don’t speak english. … Observations like this are interesting but, in the end, useless without specifics. Who are you talking about? And, more significantly, what language is spoken by their children and grandchildren? CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/65 "2011-03-18T00:58:39Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > There is no other country in the world where residents of such a large geographic area share a common, primary spoken language. How about Australia? Or Canada (not including Quebec)? Two huge countries where English is the main language and spoken by pretty much everyone, recent immigrants/temporary visitors notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/66 "2011-03-18T01:55:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I really want all students to get the best opportunity possible to succeed. That’s going to mean being practical, not doctrinaire, when it comes to educational opportunities. I agree, but I think the doctrine is on the other side. Asians do quite well in school, despite coming from countries whose language, religion, and culture are quite different than the US. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/67 "2011-03-18T02:17:46Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > That’s due to several factors. Most importantly the largest minorities in Toronto (South Asians and Chinese) are materially wealthier and culturally more prone to working together and obeying the law as compared to the blacks and Puerto Ricans who were New York’s largest minorities. This is pretty much irrelevant. New York, Buffalo, Detroit, Cleveland, and many other cities with many different ethnic groups were included in the same blackout without any 1970-like looting. Toronto was noted as a personal anecdote, but it was not the point being made. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/68 "2011-03-18T02:21:05Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > This is pretty much irrelevant. New York, Buffalo, Detroit, Cleveland, and many other cities with many different ethnic groups were included in the same blackout without any 1970-like looting. Toronto was noted as a personal anecdote, but it was not the point being made. Well several factors are involved such as the length and severity of the blackout and also when. For instance in the 2003 blackout, crime rates and other unsavoury aspects of inner cities had been “cleaned up” to a certain extent. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/69 "2011-03-18T02:23:56Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Well several factors are involved such as the length and severity of the blackout and also when. For instance in the 2003 blackout, crime rates and other unsavoury aspects of inner cities had been “cleaned up” to a certain extent. Many factors figured into the responses to each blackout. However, your simplistic “the Asians play nice together,” does not appear to have actually played a part in all the other locations, so there is no reason to believe that they, alone, saved Toronto from chaos. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/70 "2011-03-18T02:30:16Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > I agree, but I think the doctrine is on the other side. Asians do quite well in school, despite coming from countries whose language, religion, and culture are quite different than the US. This matches my anecdotal experience. However, I can’t control parents, much as I wish I had that mind-control-ray setting on my teacher ID tag. What I can control is my practices in the classroom. Assuming a level of parental involvement insufficient to overcome a language barrier, the doctrinaire solution is to blame the parents; the practical solution is to do the best job I can with the situation I’m in. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/71 "2011-03-18T02:43:07Z")
Something I saw pointed out on another board is the matter of coverage. When a bunch of black people go looking through the debris after a disaster, it’s looting. When other people do so, it’s [scavenging](http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Desperate+survivors+left+scavenge+food+debris/4444296/story.html). Even when it is the same disaster; after Katrina, the blacks of New Orleans were looting, the whites were scavenging. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/72 "2011-03-18T02:57:20Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Something I saw pointed out on another board is the matter of coverage. When a bunch of black people go looking through the debris after a disaster, it’s looting. When other people do so, it’s [scavenging](http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Desperate+survivors+left+scavenge+food+debris/4444296/story.html). Even when it is the same disaster; after Katrina, the blacks of New Orleans were looting, the whites were scavenging. There’s a difference between taking food and taking radio players and TVs. ---
**Author:** ![Borzo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/43a26b/32.png) [@Borzo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Borzo)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/73 "2011-03-18T03:03:19Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > … I live in a very metropolitan city. There are people who immigrated here in ~1900. They then had children that were born here. I’ve met some of those children who are now 60+, and some of them don’t speak english. … > > Observations like this are interesting but, in the end, useless without specifics. > > Who are you talking about? > And, more significantly, what language is spoken by their children and grandchildren? I don’t believe the specifics are relevant to the general point that I was trying to make: That it’s even possible for people born in a country to not speak the language of the country after 60 years have passed – because of their isolation within their own distinct cultural group for that entire duration – is shocking to me. Either their resistance to my culture was extraordinarily great, or our attempts at reaching out to them failed terribly. This is merely a personal anecdote suggesting that something might be wrong with our extreme tolerance of other cultures by “just letting them be” and our restraint at actively finding ways to be inclusive with them. I wasn’t attempting to make a specific factual point, but was merely contributing my observations and opinions to the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/74 "2011-03-18T03:43:12Z")
> [@Borzo](#): > > I don’t believe the specifics are relevant to the general point that I was trying to make: That it’s even possible for people born in a country to not speak the language of the country after 60 years have passed – because of their isolation within their own distinct cultural group for that entire duration – is shocking to me. Either their resistance to my culture was extraordinarily great, or our attempts at reaching out to them failed terribly. I have to admit I’m very surprised to hear about a third generation that doesn’t speak English. That’s a very unusual situatuation. My understanding is that immigrants are asimilating faster than they did a hundred years ago. This is a reflection of the much wider communities than what existed back in the 19th and early 20th centuries. It used to be people lived and worked in their neighbourhood and exposure to people from other areas was relatively rare. Nowadays, pretty much any immigrant is going to be have a radio, a television, a telephone, and an internet connection. These mean that modern immigrants learn English much quicker than past immigrants did. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/75 "2011-03-18T04:43:09Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I have to admit I’m very surprised to hear about a third generation that doesn’t speak English. That’s a very unusual situatuation. > > My understanding is that immigrants are asimilating faster than they did a hundred years ago. This is a reflection of the much wider communities than what existed back in the 19th and early 20th centuries. It used to be people lived and worked in their neighbourhood and exposure to people from other areas was relatively rare. Nowadays, pretty much any immigrant is going to be have a radio, a television, a telephone, and an internet connection. These mean that modern immigrants learn English much quicker than past immigrants did. Not in terms of education. > [@](#): > > They’re not just like the Irish — or the Italians or the Poles, for that matter. The large influx of Hispanic immigrants after 1965 represents a unique assimilation challenge for the United States. Many optimistic observers have assumed — incorrectly, it turns out — that Hispanic immigrants will follow the same economic trajectory European immigrants did in the early part of the last century. Many of those Europeans came to America with no money and few skills, but their status steadily improved. Their children outperformed them, and their children’s children were often indistinguishable from the “founding stock.” The speed of economic assimilation varied somewhat by ethnic group, but three generations were typically enough to turn “ethnics” into plain old Americans. > > This would be the preferred outcome for the tens of millions of Hispanic Americans, who are significantly poorer and less educated on average than native whites. When immigration skeptics question the wisdom of importing so many unskilled people into our nation at one time, the most common response cites the remarkable progress of Europeans a century ago. “People used to say the Irish or the Poles would always be poor, but look at them today!” For Hispanics, we are led to believe, the same thing will happen. > > But that claim isn’t true. Though about three-quarters of Hispanics living in the U.S. today are either immigrants or the children of immigrants, a significant number have roots here going back many generations. We have several ways to measure their intergenerational progress, and the results leave little room for optimism about their prospects for assimilation. [http://nrd.nationalreview.com/article/?q=YjQ4N2EyMTQ4NzZjZmNlOWQwN2RiNTZjMWZiZDY4YzQ=](http://nrd.nationalreview.com/article/?q=YjQ4N2EyMTQ4NzZjZmNlOWQwN2RiNTZjMWZiZDY4YzQ=) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/76 "2011-03-18T05:06:17Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Not in terms of education. > > _\_ Surprise, surprise, that’s what happens when you deliberately marginalize a group of people and refuse to let them assimilate. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/77 "2011-03-18T05:32:39Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > _\_ Do not [substitute text such as “some blather” or “more nonsense” inside the [QUOTE] tags]([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7697048#post7697048](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7697048#post7697048)). You know better. Knock it off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/78 "2011-03-18T06:38:36Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > There’s a difference between taking food and taking radio players and TVs. While that’s true, I would be incredibly surprised if those taking food and those taking TVs were meaningfully split along racial lines. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/79 "2011-03-18T07:25:22Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You know better. Knock it off. > > [/Moderating] Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/80 "2011-03-18T08:07:03Z")
I ran into this book–and, sorry, I don’t remember the name of it, or the author, or anything much except that it was published in the '70s and its ideas were counter to the prevailing ideas (I think). The author had done studies on what cities/countries had the lowest level of violence, and what she (I think it was a woman, and for some reason I think she was Scandinavian) found was that the more diversity, the higher the level of violence. It didn’t matter if the city was large or small, or if it was in a rich country or a poor country, or a democracy or a dictatorship–the main thing was that there was less violence the more people were similar to each other in culture, race, income, etc. Now as an American I think that would be kind of boring. But sometimes things can get too interesting, if you know what I mean. It was done in the '70s as I said, and the world was different then. I googled and didn’t find it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971.md?page=5)