# Multiculturalism - a no brainer **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 16, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971 "2011-03-16T22:34:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/161 "2011-03-21T12:51:21Z")
> [@Borzo](#): > > Would this suggest that Jews have been scapegoated in the past because people observed their obvious superiority and hated them for it? > > But the reason that Blacks have been scapegoated in the past is because people observed their obvious inferiority and hated them for it? Anti Semites hate Jews because they resent their superiority. Blacks are not hated because they are inferior but because they are dangerous. Of course, I am speaking in terms of averages. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/162 "2011-03-21T13:27:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I think that this thread helps demonstrate that yes, opposition to multiculturalism _really is_ mostly about racism, deep down. It certainly didn’t take long to devolve into yet another “blacks and brown people are inferior” thread… Yup. If the jackboot fits, wear it. Hey, where’s the “European” OP? Couldn’t the “multicultural” label refer to the modern European Union, since it’s an alternative way of dealing with those discrete European cultures that marred the 20th century with world wars & genocide? (At least those antics ended Colonialism, showing the “civilized” folk had no business running other peoples’ countries.) Or does “multicultural” only apply to non-white folks? Perhaps he has the decency to be embarrassed by the “allies” who popped up here, so predictably. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/163 "2011-03-21T13:56:46Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Anti Semites hate Jews because they resent their superiority. Blacks are not hated because they are inferior but because they are dangerous. And one is using the other against the rest of us. [I have it on good authority](http://www.hark.com/clips/qvtglpqkwg-the-jew-is-using-the-black). ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/164 "2011-03-21T14:25:03Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > And one is using the other against the rest of us. [I have it on good authority](http://www.hark.com/clips/qvtglpqkwg-the-jew-is-using-the-black). Apparently “the Blacks” do have **some** uses…[ > [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/570667/144): > > I live in a city with a large black population. Because it has a large black population, it has a high crime rate. Nevertheless, hardly any blacks are on the police force. Few can pass the mental aptitude test. > > The way to get value out of those people is through prison labor. There must be work that is too painful and dangerous for free labor to perform. ]([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13461527&postcount=144](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13461527&postcount=144)) ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/165 "2011-03-21T14:58:39Z")
Regarding the supposed cultural superiority of certain groups, I offer this: [“liquified tomato?”](http://www.sheldoncomics.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Borzo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/43a26b/32.png) [@Borzo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Borzo)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/166 "2011-03-21T15:44:11Z")
> [@Agnostic\_Pagan](#): > > Regarding the supposed cultural superiority of certain groups, I offer this: > [“liquified tomato?”](http://www.sheldoncomics.com/) As you said in another thread, members of different cultures have different values and goals, and who is to judge which values and goals are “better”? But what about violence or female genital mutilation for example… cultures CAN be weighed on a moral/ethical scale, no? Though I suspect some aren’t talking about culture, but genetics, in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/167 "2011-03-21T15:50:46Z")
According to the Census Bureau, the percentage of people who are multi-racial has increased dramatically over the last ten years. Especially in the “deep South”, somewhat surprisingly. I wonder if these people can help bridge gaps and eliminate barriers. I myself know a lot more multi-racial people, mostly children, than I used to. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/168 "2011-03-21T16:46:16Z")
> [@Borzo](#): > > As you said in another thread, members of different cultures have different values and goals, and who is to judge which values and goals are “better”? > > But what about violence or female genital mutilation for example… cultures CAN be weighed on a moral/ethical scale, no? Though I suspect some aren’t talking about culture, but genetics, in this thread. I haven’t heard a big wave of support for female genital mutilation. Last I heard, _nobody_ was immune from violence. All those Traditionally European cultures now working in harmony? No problem. Darker skinned people showing up in Europe (usually from former colonies)–Big Problem! ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/169 "2011-03-21T19:30:45Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > I haven’t heard a big wave of support for female genital mutilation. Last I heard, _nobody_ was immune from violence. > > All those Traditionally European cultures now working in harmony? No problem. Darker skinned people showing up in Europe (usually from former colonies)–Big Problem! It certainly has been in some cases in Paris & the UK, unfortunately. > **[Access Restricted](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7856787/Violent-inner-city-crime-the-figures-and-a-question-of-race.html)** > **[News Archives](https://www.findarticles.com/news/)** > > Explore the News Articles featuring Technology, Business, Entertainment, and Science & Health topics. Access reports, insights, and stories. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/170 "2011-03-22T02:43:23Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > I haven’t heard a big wave of support for female genital mutilation. Last I heard, _nobody_ was immune from violence. > > All those Traditionally European cultures now working in harmony? No problem. Darker skinned people showing up in Europe (usually from former colonies)–Big Problem! They were starting to work together after World War II and Hitler and fascism and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/171 "2011-03-22T07:03:30Z")
> [@Borzo](#): > > As you said in another thread, members of different cultures have different values and goals, and who is to judge which values and goals are “better”? > > But what about violence or female genital mutilation for example… cultures CAN be weighed on a moral/ethical scale, no? Though I suspect some aren’t talking about culture, but genetics, in this thread. Culture is subjective, and so are judgments of such cultures. ‘Objective’ criteria such as levels of violence or economic success are merely subjective bases as well. That said, I am not a moral relativist. I do think some cultures perform better at what I consider my subjective ideal - allowing its individuals to maximize their personal utility (of which economic utility is on the low side) according to their own preferences (which are often changing and rarely transitive) as long as such utility and preferences do not inflict harm on others. Among those cultures, to each their own. Yet among those, my personal feeling is that South Asian culture kicks ass (once it let go of the formal caste system) based on the ‘objective’ criteria of how many people live within in that culture without actively trying to harm each other. It is far from perfect, but I cannot see a billion people living in the US without even more communal violence than that region sees. And as a foodie, American cuisine is still developing, but so far it is seriously lacking in comparison to others. Of course, I tend to judge people not by the clothes on their back, or the vehicle on their driveway, but by what food they have on the table (or the floor as is the case in some cultures.) It does not mean I find them inferior, just that my personal preference leans in a different direction. I also tend to look to see if they have a bookcase, and what is on it. (Of course, in the future that will mean more of sneaking a peek at their Kindle.) If they don’t have one, I still don’t find them inferior, but perhaps a bit more ignorant than others, though they may still be far more knowledgeable in other subject areas for which I am ignorant. And I will stick with cuisine and literature over genetics, diplomas, or bank accounts every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Some subjective criteria are more superior to others. Just as most sauces are superior to liquified tomatoes. 😉 (Bourbon BBQ sauce for example. There is hope for American cuisine.) ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/172 "2011-03-22T14:11:09Z")
The problem with black people after Katrina is that they didn’t think big enough. The Japanese have [more initiative](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42208038/ns/world_news-asiapacific/). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/173 "2011-03-22T15:44:17Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Japan’s current situation appears to be based more on a nearly uniform standard of living than on any specific cultural traits. Until someone actually studies the situation, all the claims about Japanese culture preventing looting are simply politically inspired wild assed guesses. > > As to one question of the OP: it is not so much that one is racist if one does not embrace multiculturalism as it is that too many opponents of multiculturalism have been racists or employed racist arguments in their opposition. Those opponents have become lightning rods for the arguments of proponents of multiculturalism and some of the bad feeling spills over onto others who are considered to be “fellow travellers” of the racists. +1 I’d also add that its not simply the association with racism that makes anti-multiculturalism bad. In a progressively flattening world, having exposure to and familiarity with other cultures is probably going to be useful. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/174 "2011-03-22T15:49:48Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > The huge backlash over the [Asians in the Library](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoLLEZlpUxk)viral video has been causing the word multiculturalism to be used in media a lot for the last few days. I feel sorry for this girl. Sure, she’s racist but she has basically sabotaged her career before it even got started. It will take her years to recover from this and this video will follow her around the rest of her life. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/175 "2011-03-22T15:52:22Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Well, it’s nice to know that UCLA is tolerant enough to welcome aspiring porn stars. I know the resolution is bad but being blonde is not enough to make you a pron star. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/176 "2011-03-22T17:16:56Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I feel sorry for this girl. Sure, she’s racist but she has basically sabotaged her career before it even got started. It will take her years to recover from this and this video will follow her around the rest of her life. One of the downsides of living in a world where any idiot has an audience of millions for whatever moronic thought burbles up out of his/her barely congealed grey matter. Or upsides, if (like me) you enjoy seeing willful stupidity punished. I don’t have children, but if I did I would expend considerable parenting effort drilling into their head the potentially catastrophic implications of anything they do or say online. Being that kids in general have trouble with the concept of “a long time,” let alone “forever,” I assume it would require constant drilling— but the danger of (metaphorically) shooting yourself in the face with YouTube or Facebook is far greater and more likely than, say, the specter of the dreaded stranger with candy in the beat-up van. Which doesn’t really have much to do with multiculturalism, now that I think about it. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/177 "2011-03-22T18:02:14Z")
> [@Borzo](#): > > I think that if you CHOOSE to enter into a new culture then you should fully accept their rules, since you implicitly already did so when deciding to go there in the first place. I am trying to identify the behaviour that is offensive to you. AFAICT, the only thing that really fits the bill is language. > [@](#): > > but to be expected to be granted some kind of exception based on the argument of “tolerance of culture” is totally inappropriate, IMHO. Once again, other than language issues, what are you talking about specifically? Its not like people are asking to be exempt from biagmy laws or asking to be able to stone their adulterous women. > [@](#): > > but there should be no leeway when it comes to compromising our formal rules and our laws. Which alws and rules are yout alking about? > [@](#): > > I’ve met some of those children who are now 60+, and some of them don’t speak english. They’ve lived their entire lives insulted from their adoptive country to such a degree that despite the fact that they were born here, they still cannot speak the language! What language is that? What community still speak some language other than English after a couple of generations? Or are you talking about a few exceptions here and there? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/178 "2011-03-22T18:08:26Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It is amusing to watch people who clearly believe\* The Bell Curve \*was a legitimate book think that they’re making intelligent comments. > > For they’re sake I hope they’ve never ridiculed creationists, because otherwise they owe them some major apologies. I don’t get the connection between creationists and the Bell Curve. Creationists believe something despite all scientific evidence to the contrary. The Bell Curve points out a correlation between intelligence and socioeconomic status. It goes on to correlate intelligence to race and invites us to conclude that the reason for differences in socioeconomic status in America is largely due to differences in intelligence. I don’t buy all of it but its hardly mystical thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/179 "2011-03-22T18:13:30Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Which simply reinforces the point that such “racial” categories are social constructs. I never understood the whole “race is simply a social construct” I understood race to mean a population that tended to breed within itself. If that is a social construct (i.e. there is no biological imperitive that prevents interaacial breeding), how does that make race “simply” a social construct? It seems like more than that. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971/180 "2011-03-22T18:27:59Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Do you like the idea of creating language specific ghettos through the mechanism of the schools? Because when schools teach all subjects only in the local language, it takes kids about 1-3 years (IIRC) to become fluent enough that language doesn’t present a barrier to their learning of math, science, social studies, etc. And during those 1-3 years they fall behind their classmates in these subjects. As an alternative, if schools teach in a combination of the immigrant language and the local language, students can succeed in all subjects and take a little longer to become fluent in the local language. When they do become fluent, however, they’re not terribly behind their classmates. > > I really want all students to get the best opportunity possible to succeed. That’s going to mean being practical, not doctrinaire, when it comes to educational opportunities. To me education is a lot like health care. There is no limit to how many resources we can devote to it. Ideally each student would have a stable of tutors teaching them each subject in exactly the manner that would maximize their learning but it will probably cost society a lot more than it is worth to pay for that kind of education. We make tradeoffs and we have to ask ourselves if it is really worth all the extra expense of running multiple education systems in multiple languages in order to assimilate immigrant children as undispruptively as possible or if that money could be better spent in some other area of education. I think a reasonable society could decide that it is imply not worth the cost of easing the transition for immigrant children quite so much and improving our science labs instead. Its all a matter of priorities, isn’t it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-a-no-brainer/574971.md?page=10)