# Multiculturalism Has Failed, Say European Leaders **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047 "2011-02-11T18:23:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/1 "2011-02-11T18:23:24Z")
> [@](#): > > PARIS ([AFP](http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110210/wl_afp/francepoliticsimmigrationsociety_20110210231042)) – French President Nicolas Sarkozy declared Thursday that multiculturalism had failed, joining a growing number of world leaders or ex-leaders who have condemned it. > > “My answer is clearly yes, it is a failure,” he said in a television interview when asked about the policy which advocates that host societies welcome and foster distinct cultural and religious immigrant groups. > > "Of course we must all respect differences, but we do not want… a society where communities coexist side by side. > > “If you come to France, you accept to melt into a single community, which is the national community, and if you do not want to accept that, you cannot be welcome in France,” the right-wing president said. > [@](#): > > British Prime Minister David Cameron, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, Australia’s ex-prime minister John Howard and Spanish ex-premier Jose Maria Aznar have also recently said multicultural policies have not successfully integrated immigrants. > > Merkel in October said efforts towards multiculturalism in Germany had “failed, totally.” > [@](#): > > Britain’s Cameron last week pronounced his country’s long-standing policy of multiculturalism a failure, calling for better integration of young Muslims to combat home-grown extremism. I’m not myself familiar enough with the details of multicultural policies in Europe to judge these comments. But in general, I agree with the notion. Multi-culturism sounds great, and would be great if everyone was as tolerant and cosmopolitan as we’d like them to be. But in light of human history, I think that’s hopelessly naive. If you encourage people to emphasize their differences with other people, then they will separate themselves into clans on that basis, and the different clans will be rivals, and mutual dislike will ensue. It’s virtually inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/2 "2011-02-11T18:27:56Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > If you encourage people to emphasize their differences with other people, then they will separate themselves into clans on that basis, and the different clans will be rivals, and mutual dislike will ensue. It’s virtually inevitable. Why should different clans be rivals, necessarily? Why should they dislike each other? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/3 "2011-02-11T18:29:04Z")
Apparently, that’s human nature. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/4 "2011-02-11T18:45:17Z")
It is not. It’s not _my_ nature; it’s not been the case in multicultural areas I’ve lived in. The failure of “multiculturalism” in Europe, such as it is, I ascribe to those countries’ failure to establish national identities which _include_ their subcultures. Immigrants to France, and their descendants, are “Arab” (or “Algerian,” etc.) _rather than_ “French.” Obviously that’s a problem. A true multicultural nation needs a unifying overall identity that is separate from _any_ component culture’s identity. We struggle with this in America, to be sure, but overall I think we’re doing better than the Europeans. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/5 "2011-02-11T18:49:27Z")
Is the mere fact that different cultural communities exist side-by-side the biggest indication of failure? Or is there some conflict between these communities in Eruope? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/6 "2011-02-11T18:51:06Z")
So it’s back to look-down-your-nose cultural superiority and ghettoization, then? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/7 "2011-02-11T18:51:32Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > It is not. It’s not _my_ nature; it’s not been the case in multicultural areas I’ve lived in. > > The failure of “multiculturalism” in Europe, such as it is, I ascribe to those countries’ failure to establish national identities which _include_ their subcultures. Immigrants to France, and their descendants, are “Arab” (or “Algerian,” etc.) _rather than_ “French.” Obviously that’s a problem. A true multicultural nation needs a unifying overall identity that is separate from _any_ component culture’s identity. > > We struggle with this in America, to be sure, but overall I think we’re doing better than the Europeans. And that’s where immigration policy comes in. The numbers have to be low enough so that the culture can absorb the newcomers, and the newcomers have a defined culture in which to fit. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/8 "2011-02-11T18:52:01Z")
Or on the other hand, you could also deduce: center-right politicians in Europe and Australia (as all of your quoted sources are) have failed. In particular, they have failed to integrate their immigrant communities by means of in-name-only multicultural policies which they now seek to blame because they never supported multiculturalism in the first place. _Cf_. the U.S. of A. and Canada. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/9 "2011-02-11T18:54:01Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > So it’s back to look-down-your-nose cultural superiority and ghettoization, then? Two quick questions: 1. do you think all cultures are equally good, beneficial for people to live in? 2. do you think that a host country has a right to prefer and want to preserve their culture? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/10 "2011-02-11T18:58:50Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > It is not. It’s not _my_ nature; it’s not been the case in multicultural areas I’ve lived in. Not everyone. But enough people to make trouble. > [@Marley23](#): > > So it’s back to look-down-your-nose cultural superiority and ghettoization, then? Or enocouraging “melting pot” assimilation. > [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Or on the other hand, you could also deduce: center-right politicians in Europe and Australia (as all of your quoted sources are) have failed. In particular, they have failed to integrate their immigrant communities by means of in-name-only multicultural policies which they now seek to blame because they never supported multiculturalism in the first place. I don’t think these guys have been in power all that long, such that you can blame their specific policies. > [@](#): > > _Cf_. the U.S. of A. and Canada. Not sure what you mean with this. ---
**Author:** ![Arcite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/67e7ee/32.png) [@Arcite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arcite)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/11 "2011-02-11T19:01:43Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’m not myself familiar enough with the details of multicultural policies in Europe to judge these comments. But in general, I agree with the notion. > > Multi-culturism sounds great, and would be great if everyone was as tolerant and cosmopolitan as we’d like them to be. But in light of human history, I think that’s hopelessly naive. If you encourage people to emphasize their differences with other people, then they will separate themselves into clans on that basis, and the different clans will be rivals, and mutual dislike will ensue. It’s virtually inevitable. I disagree. Multiculturalism doesn’t sound great at all; it sounds like hell. When you say that multiculturalism has “failed,” that it sounds great but belief in it is naive, you’re implying that it’s a good ideal, but one which somehow unfortunately just can’t work in real life. We must go even further than this, and say that it’s not a good ideal in the first place. The problem with multiculturalism is not that it has “failed;” it’s that it’s false, wrong, and destructive. The best way to “respect all differences” is from the other side of the globe. Good fences make good neighbors and all that. Conservatives in America make this mistake all the time, criticizing “multiculturalism” while never criticizing or even drawing attention to the immigration of incompatible, alien groups of which multiculturalism is the inevitable result. It’s like planting a crabapple tree on your front lawn and then complaining that the lawn is littered with crabapples. “I love this tree; I just need to find a way to prevent my lawn from becoming littered with crabapples.” No, the only solution is to get rid of the tree. And notice that that’s what Sarkozy is doing here. He’s a million miles away from even questioning the immigration of non-Western peoples into France. He foolishly thinks this immigration can continue but its concomitant problems can somehow be solved. People like Geert Wilders and the British National Party have it right. The solution is to stop the immigration. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/12 "2011-02-11T19:08:35Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t think these guys have been in power all that long, such that you can blame their specific policies. Merkel has been in power for 6 years. Howard was in power for more than a decade, starting in _1996_ (he also would be shocked to learn that Australia is in Europe). Jose Maria Aznar was PM of Spain for 8 years, also starting in 1996. Even Sarkozy has been in power for nearly 4 years (and his party has held the presidency for 16). So for a value of “these guys” that includes David Cameron, you would be correct. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/13 "2011-02-11T19:10:26Z")
The impact of multicultural policies is not felt over 5 years or so. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/14 "2011-02-11T19:11:17Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The impact of multicultural policies is not felt over 5 years or so. Or 15, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/15 "2011-02-11T19:12:48Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Not sure what you mean with this. I think he’s saying that, in the U.S. and Canada where multiculturalism is actually wanted, it works. But I would challenge putting Canada in here. They are more melting pot style. (Personally, I think France is, too, but assumed the U.K. and Australia weren’t.) I really, really don’t understand why multiculturalism is a bad idea, though. You want people to be bigots? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/16 "2011-02-11T19:13:15Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > The best way to “respect all differences” is from the other side of the globe. Good fences make good neighbors and all that. But the world would be a better place if people could be good neighbors without good fences. In this sense, it sounds good. But a guy who insists on not having fences because we should be good neighbors without them is unrealistic. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/17 "2011-02-11T19:16:34Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I think he’s saying that, in the U.S. and Canada where multiculturalism is actually wanted, it works. But I would challenge putting Canada in here. They are more melting pot style. (Personally, I think France is, too, but assumed the U.K. and Australia weren’t.) Considering the amount of complaining you hear about racial issues in America, coming from the very circles who are most supportive of multiculturalism, I don’t think they should be holding America up as a shining example of multiculturalist success. > [@](#): > > I really, really don’t understand why multiculturalism is a bad idea, though. You want people to be bigots? It’s not about what I want. Some significant number of people will be bigots, whether I want them to be or not. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/18 "2011-02-11T19:24:38Z")
For all the friction, America _has_ been a multicultural success in some large measures, to the point where any individual describing his own ethnic heritage as “real American” is automatically taken to be a bigot. There _is no_ one “real American” heritage. The essence of America can _only_ be encapsulated by reference to a handful of cultures (not as large a handful, yet, as I would like, but it’s growing). ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/19 "2011-02-11T19:32:49Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > For all the friction, America _has_ been a multicultural success in some large measures, to the point where any individual describing his own ethnic heritage as “real American” is automatically taken to be a bigot. There _is no_ one “real American” heritage. The essence of America can _only_ be encapsulated by reference to a handful of cultures (not as large a handful, yet, as I would like, but it’s growing). One problem with using America as a comparison is that America is a nation of immigrants, but during most of its history had more of a melting pot approach than a multicultural one. So you need to be careful about talking about the great success when much of the success was attained at a time when bigotry was more accepted and immigrants were expected to shed their cultural identities. Which is even if one were to accept your assertion to begin with. From my vantage point, it seems that there are a lot of angry people out there. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/20 "2011-02-11T19:35:44Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > 1. do you think all cultures are equally good, beneficial for people to live in? Yes, I think modern Western culture, tribal Neanderthal culture, and Nazi German culture are all equally good. I also think we’re all special snowflakes. Seriously: once you leave out the extremes this turns into a question without much in the way of meaningful answers. You’re not asking about a law, a viewpoint, or an action, and I’m happy to judge any of those. You’re asking me to decide what the important attributes of a culture are and then determine whether or not the whole thing is good. And then, apparently, you want to support this opinion with some kind of social policy. What makes this a worthwhile judgment, let alone the basis of things like immigration policy? > [@](#): > > 1. do you think that a host country has a right to prefer and want to preserve their culture? Since when do countries have rights? No. People have rights. When people pass laws “preserving” their cultures, they’re generally trying to use the law to keep their culture in a dominant position. Why? “We got here first?” I’m not impressed by that as a reason, and I don’t think a country should “prefer” one culture or another. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047.md?page=2)