# Multiculturalism Has Failed, Say European Leaders **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047 "2011-02-11T18:23:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/121 "2011-02-14T15:15:58Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Because people should be able to decide what kind of culture they want to live in. I can’t believe that you or anyone would argue otherwise. And why shouldn’t that decision belong to the people who have lived in a particular place? Why should they be forced to change because outsiders prefer it. How are you forced to change? Your example was government forms in languages other than English. Those don’t force you to do anything; they allow someone else to do something without learning English. > [@](#): > > Why isn’t it incumbent on the outsiders to adapt to the culture into which they’ve moved? Why is it one or the other? > [@](#): > > The “tyranny of the majority” is thrown around as if it is so bad. But if push comes to shove over an issue, why should the fewer number dominate. Again, telling wording: this isn’t about “dominance” and it’s not about “survival.” > [@](#): > > It helps society by having a tie that binds it. Doesn’t living in the same society, under the same laws, already bind people together? Yes, the savings from eliminating Spanish and Chinese-language forms would be fantastic, :rolleyes: but I don’t think a making it harder for people to participate in society binds society together. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/122 "2011-02-14T15:25:45Z")
To my mind at least, “multiculturalism” just seems the default state you get when you don’t do anything special - just let folks do what they want, within the rule of law of course. Gradually, you will get a certain melding of cultures, whether your model is “cultural mosaic” or “melting pot” - because people, being people, will eventually insist on intermarrying, going to each other’s restaurants, and joining high-paying professions, unless there is some sort of coersion applied to prevent them. I’ve not yet seen any real cause to interfere with this process. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/123 "2011-02-14T15:31:35Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > If by “force” you mean crafting laws, you’re wrong. You’re allowing the will of the people to craft their own society. How the hall can anyone be against that? As far as civil rights, where is that is right that says that if I move to Aberfuckistan, that unless the government prints all their documents in the native tongue of every foreigner, they their civil rights are bight violated? All a stupid single language rule for a government will do is make it less capable of doing it’s job, it won’t stamp out the other cultures you are so terrified of. You’ll need to get much more intrusive and use much more force to do that. And you aren’t talking about allowing people to “craft their own society”; you are talking about using force to prevent people from doing so. > [@magellan01](#): > > You’re conflating two different things: the right that people have to craft their own futures and the pros and cons if each decision they make. You can have the right, and still then debate the respective pros and cons of a particular issue. Again, you aren’t talking about letting anyone “craft their own future”, you are talking about using force to “craft” other people’s future for them against their will. > [@magellan01](#): > > This is a statement of zero value other than it advertises your own biases. Your _assuming_ malice. Your’e _assuming_ harm. You’re _assuming_ hatred. You’re assuming they are necessary components to preferring one aspect of a culture over another. THAT is ridiculous. This isn’t about preference. This is about force. You want to force others to act and think according to your plan for them. I am “assuming” malice because there’s no other reason for it; there’s no benefit to be gained not even a selfish one. I am “assuming” harm because there’s no other way to achieve what you say you want. I am “assuming” hatred because that is exactly what this sort of thing has always been about. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/124 "2011-02-14T15:41:50Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > You take an exception and insist that it should be the rule. Expecting every community in America to be as cosmopolitan as New York City ignores the unique factors that made New York a cosmopolis and shows a very poor understanding–or perhaps outright denial–of human nature… Anyone who knows squat about Texas history realizes that we got most of the cowboy culture from Spain/Mexico. Those people contributed a lot of good recipes–along with the African-Americans, Central Europeans, Cajuns/Creoles & a flood of newcomers. [Multicultural tourism](http://www.visithoustontexas.com/visitors/multicultural/) in Houston? Before WWI, San Antonio street signs came in English, German & Spanish; anti-German hysteria ended that, but Spanish will never go away. If you visit, drop by the [Institute of Texas Cultures](http://texancultures.com/). Yeah, I know that Deep East Texas has some communities founded by folks kicked out of Arkansas for being too inbred. And they don’t hold with furriners! As far as I’m concerned, those folks can continue marrying first cousins & finding new ways to cook possum. Any smart kids born there will leave at the first opportunity… ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/125 "2011-02-14T15:44:55Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s a lucky break: you don’t have to justify it, so it doesn’t matter if you can’t justify it. 😉 No, it’s not a “lucky break,” it’s commen sense. If someone tried to convince you that you should not care for you own family than for any other family, you would see right away that he was quite mad. > [@Marley23](#): > > So you don’t have to justify it and disagreeing is insane. This sounds more like bluster than an actual argument. In any case I think it’s telling that you insist on discussing this in terms of survival, as if a people and a culture are going to be killed off. You, on the other hand, talk in terms of a simple-minded moral imperative of absolute tolerance and acceptance. Whether or not such an impossible moral standard can be made to work in the real world is a question you would just rather not ask. People and cultures have gone extinct all over the world throughout history. There is no reason it could not happen to us. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/126 "2011-02-14T15:49:55Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Yeah, I know that Deep East Texas has some communities founded by folks kicked out of Arkansas for being too inbred. Apparently you believe ethnic hatred is perfectly acceptable, so long at it’s aimed at poor whites. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/127 "2011-02-14T15:53:42Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > If someone tried to convince you that you should not care for you own family than for any other family, you would see right away that he was quite mad. I’d think he was wrong, but not mad. And a culture is not a family. A culture can include millions of people who’ve never met. Why do I need to prize its survival? > [@](#): > > Whether or not such an impossible moral standard can be made to work in the real world is a question you would just rather not ask. You haven’t discussed whether or not it would work. So far all I’m hearing is that the survival of your preferred culture is threatened when you’re in proximity to people who are not part of the same culture. > [@](#): > > People and cultures have gone extinct all over the world throughout history. There is no reason it could not happen to us. Why should I care if it does? Cultures change and evolve, and yes, sometimes they die out. I do think humanity is diminished a bit when a culture goes extinct. But it happens. The culture I live in is going to be around for generations and perhaps for many centuries. Why do I care what cultures exist in the distant future? It’s all well and good to try to preserve the things you like, but I don’t go for the school of thought that would have us pretend our preferences are objectively the best and that they must exist forever. ---
**Author:** ![Dumbguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dumbguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dumbguy)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/128 "2011-02-14T16:43:06Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Okay, let me rephrase: Shouldn’t people have the right to say that all government business be done in a particular language? If not, why? You do have that right, and you’ve said it. Others have disagreed, and your point of view lost. Welcome to democracy. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/129 "2011-02-14T17:24:10Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > You take an exception and insist that it should be the rule. Expecting every community in America to be as cosmopolitan as New York City ignores the unique factors that made New York a cosmopolis and shows a very poor understanding–or perhaps outright denial–of human nature. > > I read your post as “this is why I think it’s cool to despise my own nation and people.” I have news for you. That “exception” is going to become the “rule” more and more if you want to live anywhere besides the most backward rural communities. So that means you are going to have to get used to working with people from all sorts of backgrounds and “it’s human nature” is not going to be an acceptible excuse for acting like a xenophobic jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/130 "2011-02-14T17:59:41Z")
IMHO, it’s a mistake to focus on who started what race riot or the like. Makes no difference. Bottom line is that there’s animosity. You claiming it’s mostly the fault of whites won’t change that. Human nature and weaknesses apply to whites too. > [@DSeid](#): > > Sorry for the multipost but [this poll](http://www.gallup.com/press/104206/WHO-SPEAKS-ISLAM.aspx)is of note. In comparison to the highly publicized survey of 1003 individuals performed by a conservative thinktank, this was a Gallup poll of 50,000 interviews. From my experience, a lot of people mean different things when they answer questions like the ones in that poll. It’s difficult to do a poll that makes comparisons across culture divides on the basis of simple questions. > [@](#): > > Another factoid out of the oft quoted smaller poll that found 40% of Muslim youth stating that given a choice they would prefer Sharia law is that it was less among the first generation and higher among those born in Britain - giving some support to the concept that it is a reaction to being given the message that they are not welcome as members of the culture. As above I don’t think this is relevant. But FWIW, I’m also skeptical. Radical Islam has been gaining strength all over the world in recent decades, and as such it tends to be stronger amont the young than the old. Ascribing a British result along these lines to the specific situation in England is a mistake, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/131 "2011-02-14T18:12:01Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Apparently you believe ethnic hatred is perfectly acceptable, so long at it’s aimed at poor whites. I don’t care for the stupid ones. But, as a Texan, I know that many are surprisingly bright. And they often don’t stay poor. However, they do tend to leave the stifling enclaves where family trees have only one branch… ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/132 "2011-02-14T18:45:42Z")
It’s funny, because every place I’ve been- ranging from deeply impoverished Mali to tiny war-torn Nepal- has managed to come up with forms in English. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/133 "2011-02-14T19:07:18Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > How are you forced to change? Your example was government forms in languages other than English. Those don’t force you to do anything; they allow someone else to do something without learning English. It’s not “I” but the culture that I am a part of. And no one is forcing any prospective newcomer to do anything. You can come and participate by learning the language (even before you come, if you’d like), come and feel like you’re living on the margin of a society or not come at all. Hundreds of millions of people have chosen to come and assimilate in countless cultures. If I want to move to Moscow, Rome, Helsinki, Sao Paolo, Seoul, etc. I would expect that I’d become part of their culture, not the other way around. > [@Marley23](#): > > Why is it one or the other? It doesn’t have to be. But if there is a preference, the host culture should win out. Both common sense, a sense of democracy and common courtesy make this so. > [@Marley23](#): > > Again, telling wording: this isn’t about “dominance” and it’s not about “survival.” Oh, please. You laser in on the word “dominate” as if it’s some bugaboo. Try answering the question: “The “tyranny of the majority” is thrown around as if it is so bad. But if push comes to shove over an issue, why should the fewer number dominate?” > [@Marley23](#): > > Doesn’t living in the same society, under the same laws, already bind people together? Yes, the savings from eliminating Spanish and Chinese-language forms would be fantastic, :rolleyes: but I don’t think a making it harder for people to participate in society binds society together. Obviously, we are talking about degrees here. No one is implying that without X (an official language, in this case), that the society will automatically fall apart. The question is that do a people want one of those ties that bind them to be language. I don’t think the answer will always be the same, but IF the current inhabitants want it to be, why don’t they have the right to do so? Please answer that. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/134 "2011-02-14T19:13:21Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > All a stupid single language rule for a government will do is make it less capable of doing it’s job, it won’t stamp out the other cultures you are so terrified of. You’ll need to get much more intrusive and use much more force to do that. And you aren’t talking about allowing people to “craft their own society”; you are talking about using force to prevent people from doing so. Nope. I’m talking about the right of a people to craft their own society. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Again, you aren’t talking about letting anyone “craft their own future”, you are talking about using force to “craft” other people’s future for them against their will. Nope. I’m talking about the right of a people to craft their own society. Newcomers can choose to some or not. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > This isn’t about preference. This is about force. You want to force others to act and think according to your plan for them. Nope. Is is clearly about preference. Saying otherwise indicates poor reading on your part. I’m talking about the right of a people to craft their own society. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I am “assuming” malice because there’s no other reason for it; there’s no benefit to be gained not even a selfish one. > > I am “assuming” harm because there’s no other way to achieve what you say you want. > > I am “assuming” hatred because that is exactly what this sort of thing has always been about. :rolleyes: Please. You’re assuming malice because you _always_ assume malice when it comes to any majority or people in position of power. If not, I might be inclined to take your position a half a tad more seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/135 "2011-02-14T19:52:36Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It’s not “I” but the culture that I am a part of. The distinction isn’t relevant here, since the preference isn’t any less arbitrary just because a bunch of people share it. Anyway I’m talking to you, not the whole culture. 😉 > [@](#): > > And no one is forcing any prospective newcomer to do anything. Except learn English or fall further behind. > [@](#): > > If I want to move to Moscow, Rome, Helsinki, Sao Paolo, Seoul, etc. I would expect that I’d become part of their culture, not the other way around. I’m not sure speaking the language is the sole determining factor in whether or not you are part of a culture. When you emigrate, you can conduct yourself as you see fit and your expectation isn’t unreasonable. The question is why we’re supposed to prefer one over the other. > [@](#): > > Oh, please. You laser in on the word “dominate” as if it’s some bugaboo. I don’t have a problem with the word. I think reflects the fearful mindset we’re discussing. > [@](#): > > But if push comes to shove over an issue, why should the fewer number dominate? I never said anybody should dominate, and I don’t think the behavior you’re describing can reasonably be described as dominating a culture. > [@](#): > > I don’t think the answer will always be the same, but IF the current inhabitants want it to be, why don’t they have the right to do so? Please answer that. Why _don’t_ they have the right? It’s unnecessary, helps no one, and it’s intended to be punitive. I think encouraging immigrants to assimilate is important (and by and large Europe has failed horribly at this). I think that should be done through active encouragement, not by penalizing people for not fitting in to a sufficient degree or blocking people from undesirable cultures. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/136 "2011-02-14T20:17:43Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > If it’s foolish and self-destructive to the culture, they wouldn’t do it. That leaves “unjust”. And that’s what I’m asking you: why isn’t it just for a people to want to want government to use one official language. I’m not asking about the pros and cons of doing so right now, just whether they have the right to do so. I say “yes”. You seem so say “no”. Why? What do you even mean by “right”? Are you asking whether such a law would violate the natural rights of other people? Not directly, but indirectly it would. The action that others must take to work around such a law is tremendous, and for many folks impossible: learning a new language as an adult is extraordinarily difficult for a lot of people, and you give them three choices: 1. Leave the country and their community; 2. Undertake a task that’s nearly impossible for them; or 3. Give up certain rights and protections of citizenship. These are very large burdens to place on people for very small gains. So yes, I’d see it as forcing people to give up fundamental rights. Are you asking if it’s constitutional? The answer there [is complicated](http://www.scribd.com/doc/334176/English-as-the-Official-Language-of-the-United-States-Legal-Background-and-Analysis-of-Legislation-in-the-110th-Congress). In some cases it’s constitutional, and in others it seems to violate the 14th amendment’s equal protection clause. Ultimately, such proposals serve very little good. If we’re trying to prevent women from being abused by patriarchal cultures, we already have laws against that; we don’t need additional laws. If we’re trying to prevent people from speaking Spanish in their community, we don’t need laws against that; we need to mind our own damn business and let others mind theirs. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/137 "2011-02-14T22:28:33Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > It’s funny, because every place I’ve been- ranging from deeply impoverished Mali to tiny war-torn Nepal- has managed to come up with forms in English. It’s the new form of American exceptionalism, we saw the same sort of arguments against universal health care. The claim that America is just plain less competent, just plain dumber than the rest of the world and we can’t do what they do. > [@magellan01](#): > > Oh, please. You laser in on the word “dominate” as if it’s some bugaboo. Try answering the question: “The “tyranny of the majority” is thrown around as if it is so bad. But if push comes to shove over an issue, why should the fewer number dominate?” False dilemma and a straw man. The tyranny of the majority is about a majority oppressing a smaller group because it can, it has nothing to do with some wholly imaginary us-or-them situation. Why should either group dominate? > [@magellan01](#): > > Nope. I’m talking about the right of a people to craft their own society. Nonsense. You are talking about forcing other people to do what you want. > [@magellan01](#): > > :rolleyes: Please. You’re assuming malice because you _always_ assume malice when it comes to any majority or people in position of power. More nonsense. I’m assuming malice because there’s no other possible motivation for this. No one is profiting, no one is being protected; this is just about sending stormtroopers to kick down doors and force people to do what you want just because you have more numbers and can’t stand the thought of someone, somewhere not being an identical copy of yourself. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/138 "2011-02-14T23:25:39Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > … It’s difficult to do a poll that makes comparisons across culture divides on the basis of simple questions… Yup. And best left to organization that are quite skilled at it like Gallup, rather than conservative thinktanks. Yet which one gets the press and the links? The small conservative thinktank effort or the Gallup one of 50,000 that showed a great commonality in values? I can entertain an argument for encouraging a common language - communication across groups is part of social cohesiveness. But those who have no problem with tyranny of the majority (as long as they are part of the majority, anyway), those who think that tolerating minority cultures is allowing them to “dominate” and a “threat to the survival” of the majority culture, or other such hyperbole - meh - why bother? The world is a diverse place and few countries thrive trying to keep their cultures pure. Even homogenous [Japan](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/01/business/worldbusiness/01iht-wbjapan.1.5956210.html) has begun to understand the importance of diversity. Even [Israel](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/01/business/worldbusiness/01iht-wbjapan.1.5956210.html) has laws on its books to protect the rights of its minority citizens (and of course its Jewish population is hardly a homogenous culture). Democracy means nothing without protection of minority views, beliefs, and practices. **Magellan01** , to be consistent, would endorse an Egypt that elected in an Islamist regime that executed apostates. (And from his Pit thread history, I know he would not be so consistent.) Freedom for those who think believe and act like most of the rest of us but not for those who think believe or act differently is faux freedom at best. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/139 "2011-02-14T23:31:06Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Yup. And best left to organization that are quite skilled at it like Gallup, rather than conservative thinktanks. Yet which one gets the press and the links? The small conservative thinktank effort or the Gallup one of 50,000 that showed a great commonality in values? > > I can entertain an argument for encouraging a common language - communication across groups is part of social cohesiveness. But those who have no problem with tyranny of the majority (as long as they are part of the majority, anyway), those who think that tolerating minority cultures is allowing them to “dominate” and a “threat to the survival” of the majority culture, or other such hyperbole - meh - why bother? > > The world is a diverse place and few countries thrive trying to keep their cultures pure. Even homogenous [Japan](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/01/business/worldbusiness/01iht-wbjapan.1.5956210.html) has begun to understand the importance of diversity. Even [Israel](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/01/business/worldbusiness/01iht-wbjapan.1.5956210.html) has laws on its books to protect the rights of its minority citizens (and of course its Jewish population is hardly a homogenous culture). Democracy means nothing without protection of minority views, beliefs, and practices. **Magellan01** , to be consistent, would endorse an Egypt that elected in an Islamist regime that executed apostates. (And from his Pit thread history, I know he would not be so consistent.) Freedom for those who think believe and act like most of the rest of us but not for those who think believe or act differently is faux freedom at best. My favorite saying about democracy unrestrained by legal protections for minorities: ‘like three wolves and two sheep voting on what’s for dinner’. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/140 "2011-02-14T23:54:45Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’m not myself familiar enough with the details of multicultural policies in Europe to judge these comments. But in general, I agree with the notion. > > Multi-culturism sounds great, and would be great if everyone was as tolerant and cosmopolitan as we’d like them to be. But in light of human history, I think that’s hopelessly naive. If you encourage people to emphasize their differences with other people, then they will separate themselves into clans on that basis, and the different clans will be rivals, and mutual dislike will ensue. It’s virtually inevitable. Fotheringay - Phipps, Have you seen this new book on immigration and human nature? > [@](#): > > Assimilationists tend to be neoconservatives, such as the contributors to Tamar Jacoby’s 2003 book Reinventing the Melting Pot. Some have made brave contributions by opposing bilingual education etc., but they are often blindly insouciant about the quantity and quality of immigrants. > > Both views, however, as Roth notes, rest upon “the idea that different groups of people are virtually identical and interchangeable … > > “There has been virtually no discussion among assimilationists of the extent to which it is possible for immigrants to make the changes necessary for successful assimilation” > > Roth reviews the social science in tremendous detail (includes 993 footnotes and a 35-page bibliography). [http://shrinkwrapped.blogs.com/blog/2011/02/naturalistic-sociological-experiments.html#tp](http://shrinkwrapped.blogs.com/blog/2011/02/naturalistic-sociological-experiments.html#tp) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047.md?page=8)