# Multiculturalism Has Failed, Say European Leaders **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047 "2011-02-11T18:23:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/161 "2011-02-15T22:16:55Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > I already work with people from all sorts of backgrounds and get along with them quite nicely, thank you. Well, then what makes you think everyone else can’t figure out how to do it? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/162 "2011-02-15T22:18:07Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Really, all this terror in places like Britain or America of the (impoverished and minority) Evil Muslims relentlessly forcing their culture on everyone is an example of psychological projection at its finest. It’s something feared by people who themselves are obsessed with forcing everyone else to live and speak as they do, so they convince themselves that the funny talking guy working at the local fast food joint is trying to do the same to them. Please give me the name of one of the 9/11 hijackers who came from an impoverished background. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/163 "2011-02-15T22:44:17Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Please give me the name of one of the 9/11 hijackers who came from an impoverished background. What do they have to do with this argument? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/164 "2011-02-15T22:57:47Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > What do they have to do with this argument? You claimed that terroristed did so because they were “impoverished”. So, please give me the names of one of the hijackers who came from an impoverished background? There were 19 of them so it shouldn’t be difficult if your claim is true. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/165 "2011-02-15T23:24:56Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You claimed that terroristed did so because they were “impoverished”. Where did I mention terrorism? We are talking about banning such terrible evils as speaking Spanish or building a minaret or having non-Christian holidays. Not terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/166 "2011-02-16T01:53:05Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Well, I have news for you. It’s only happening in western countries. Millions of Americans and Europeans are not flooding legally and illegally into third world countries. Countries like Mexico, India and China are very, very strict about controlling immigration. Only western nations are expected to share their homelands with alien races and cultures from all around the world and to be indifferent to their own survival. You mean to say that doesn’t seem even a little strange to you? … As has been pointed out those borders are quite porous. People could get in there if they wanted to. Yet people do not try to emmigrate legally or illegally to those countries in huge numbers; they do not want to. People move out. In fact they try to move to America … and Canada and Australia. Why? Why aren’t the best minds moving to China or Mexico or even France (way down there in net migration rates)? Why do we attract many of the world’s best minds from all cultures? And where would our United States _be_ without these minds, without the contributions made by all these “alien races and cultures”? I have news for _you_. If the United States was not a place that was known for given all the freedom to be both a valued member of the culture of the United States and a member of a culture of heritage, then we’d not have attracted these minds and in every sense of the word we’d be a much poorer place for it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/167 "2011-02-16T02:13:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > “Protecting your culture” in this context is just a noble sounding way of saying “force everyone else to live like we do”. If you are going to force people to live according to your culture, then it does mean beating people up (or worse) or threatening to do so. Otherwise they won’t do it. You need force and lots of it. Oh really? Then answer me this: if a country simply decides to conduct all government business in the host language only, say, English, who is getting beat up? Where is this force you speak of? Never mind “lots of it”, any of it? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/168 "2011-02-16T02:29:42Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > As has been pointed out those borders are quite porous. People could get in there if they wanted to. Yet people do not try to emmigrate legally or illegally to those countries in huge numbers; they do not want to. Say what? I’ve heard of Mexico’s problems with large numbers of illegal immigrants. > [@DSeid](#): > > Why aren’t the best minds moving to China or Mexico or even France (way down there in net migration rates)? Why do we attract many of the world’s best minds from all cultures? A good higher education system. That doesn’t mean they _stay_ here, not anymore. They just get a good college education and leave for some country that isn’t full of people that hate them. > [@magellan01](#): > > Oh really? Then answer me this: if a country simply decides to conduct all government business in the host language only, say, English, who is getting beat up? Where is this force you speak of? Never mind “lots of it”, any of it? None, of course. The force will come when that doesn’t work. People will suffer because of it, the government will be less capable, but those evil foreigners will keep using their evil foreign tongue. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/169 "2011-02-16T02:50:43Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > . . . is not going to be an acceptible excuse for acting like a xenophobic jerk. “Hypothetical” insults that are directly pointed at other posters are not permitted. Knock it off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/170 "2011-02-16T02:54:26Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > None, of course. The force will come when that doesn’t work. People will suffer because of it, the government will be less capable, but those evil foreigners will keep using their evil foreign tongue. Why would the force come from simply has an official state religion? How? We’re NOT talking about outlawing any language from being spoken or any signs being put up in businesses. We’re not even talking about translations of government documents being created by private individuals or groups. So where is this “force” you speak of? Or are you backpedaling form your “force” claim and now moving to “they will suffer”? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/171 "2011-02-16T03:27:00Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Why would the force come from simply has an official state religion? How? We’re NOT talking about outlawing any language from being spoken or any signs being put up in businesses. We’re not even talking about translations of government documents being created by private individuals or groups. So where is this “force” you speak of? > > Or are you backpedaling form your “force” claim and now moving to “they will suffer”? No, you are just ignoring what I’m actually saying in favor of your own strawman. The goal of this is to “protect our culture” by crushing any and all differences, to force everyone to conform with an officially mandated, state defined “real” American culture. Because apparently American culture is so weak and undesirable that merely speaking a different language than English or wearing “foreign” clothing will destroy it. If your little fantasy of having the government function in English only was implemented, it wouldn’t do anything about that. People would still speak other languages than English, wear funny clothing, follow other religions than Christianity. The only method that can “protect” American culture by stamping out all differences like you want is large amounts of force; anything else will just be ignored or worked around. Besides, we know from history that’s what people with your attitude eventually resort to if they can; I expect you’d like to bring back the old days where children were kidnapped from families that spoke the “wrong language” or practiced the “wrong religion”, so they could be properly beaten into speaking only English, terrorized into worshiping the “right way”, and told how their parents are evil. Not that you’d ever admit it. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/172 "2011-02-16T04:36:05Z")
> [@Cort](#): > > Besides, it’s not the general act of covering up …(a buch of stuff)…turn a blind eye and allow such antidiluvian practises in their midst. Wah wah wah wah those girls in their niqabs should be forced to show more skin because right now it really kind of hurts my feelings that they don’t want me staring at their breasts. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/173 "2011-02-16T05:13:02Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Do you maintain the same scorn for your run of the mill agoraphobic who avoid being out in public? I think mentally ill people get a pass when they can’t fit in. > [@](#): > > How do you know any given person “rejects all aspects of being part of society?” Again, there are absolutely no restriction on what veiled women do in single-sex environments. That woman in a burqa may well be doing a number of civic activities that you know nothing about. There is more to society than just walking around outside. Regardless of whether or not she “rejects all aspects” of being part of the society she’s living in, wearing a burqa in the United States certainly flouts cultural traditions. Unless you’re the Lone Ranger, Batman or Zorro obscuring your face as a matter of general policy is generally frowned upon as its something that bandits or criminals do. Secondly it is a barrier to communication. We rely on facial expressions as part of the overall communication experience with other human beings which is difficult to do when someone is wearing a mask. A buqa is not compatible with the culture I grew up in. (Not that I want to pass laws against it.) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/174 "2011-02-16T05:31:54Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Say what? I’ve heard of Mexico’s problems with large numbers of illegal immigrants. [Figures for net migration rates](http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/WorldStats/CIA-World-Factbook-Net-migration-rate.html). Note that Mexico is a large negative number - many more moving out than in. > [@](#): > > A good higher education system. That doesn’t mean they _stay_ here, not anymore. They just get a good college education and leave for some country that isn’t full of people that hate them. [Really?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_born) > [@](#): > > 45% of Ph.D. physicists working in the United States are foreign born (2004).[4] > 80% of total post-doctoral chemical and materials engineering in the United States are foreign-born (1988).[5] … > …the proportion of foreign-born engineers among assistant professors younger than 35 years has increased from 10% in 1972 to 50%-55% in 1983-1985, … An astounding 60 percent of the top science students in the United States and 65 percent of the top math students are the children of immigrants. In addition, foreign-born high school students make up 50 percent of the 2004 U.S.Math Olympiad’s top scorers, 38 percent of the U.S. Physics Team, and 25 percent of the Intel Science Talent Search finalists—the United States’ most prestigious awards for young scientists and mathematicians.[7] > Among 1985 foreign-born engineering doctorate holders, about 40% expected to work in the United States after graduating. An additional 17 percent planned to stay on as post-doctorates, and most of these are likely to remain permanently in the United States. Those, almost 60% of foreign-born engineering doctorate holders are likely to become part of the US engineering labor force within a few years after graduating. The other approximately 40% of foreign born engineering Phds mostly likely find employment working for Multinational corporations outside of the US.[5] > In the 2004 Intel Science Talent Search, more children (18) have parents who entered the country on H-1B (professional) visas than parents born in the United States (16). To place this finding in perspective, note that new H-1B visa holders each year represent less than 0.04 percent of the U.S. population.[7] > Selection for admission to US graduate schools continue to be made by committees dominated by faculty member.(1985) Foreign born faculty now accounts for over 50% of faculty in engineering (1994).[5] > 27 out the 87 (more than 30%) American Nobel Prize winners in Medicine and Physiology between 1901 and 2005 were born outside the US [8] … The United States has been the beneficiary of a brain drain from the rest of the world. See [here](http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/1/0/0/5/6/p100566_index.html) and [here](http://www.oecdobserver.org/news/fullstory.php/aid/673/The_brain_drain:_Old_myths,_new_realities.html). > [@](#): > > The United States is the main pole of attraction for foreign skilled workers; 40% of its foreign-born adult population have tertiary level education. Since the early 1990s, some 900 000 highly skilled professionals, mainly IT workers, from India, China, Russia and a few OECD countries (including Canada, the UK and Germany) have migrated to the United States under the H1B temporary visa programme. The United States also takes in 32% of all foreign students studying in the OECD countries. Indeed, higher education is an important channel for US firms recruiting highly skilled migrants; some 25% of H1B visa holders in 1999 were previously students enrolled at US universities. … Migrants from developing countries are generally more likely to stay in the host country than migrants from advanced countries. Survey evidence on the share of foreign PhD graduates in science and technology who stay abroad show that 79% of 1990-91 doctoral recipients from India and 88% of those from China were still working in the United States in 1995. … only a handful of countries have been successful in luring their talented emigrés back home. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/175 "2011-02-16T05:35:48Z")
When I was a teenager, I flouted social tradition by wearing combat boots, spiky jewelry, and bright blue hair dye- a look designed to show my contempt for American consumerism and gender norms. A scowling teenage punk rocker is just as distant, inscrutable and vaguely menacing as a niqab. Indeed, I took special pride in making people uncomfortable with my appearance…especially since even then I was a generally nice person. Obnoxious? Yeah, sure. Dangerous or worth worrying about at all? No, of course not. It’s a big world and it takes all kinds to keep it turning. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/176 "2011-02-16T05:45:43Z")
Oh this to add - If our country’s post 9-11 xenophobia, coupled with a perception that this country’s best days are past, do make it less likely that we attract and keep these minds, minds of alien races and cultures, (as [this article](http://www.soc.duke.edu/globalengineering/pdfs/media/losingtheworlds/nam_usexperiencing.pdf) expresses concern about) then we are in trouble indeed. But they certainly won’t be going to countries that are less accepting of the diversity they represent than we are. Their home countries, maybe. > [@](#): > > … immigrants have contributed disproportionately to the most dynamic part of the U.S. economy – the high-tech sector. In Silicon Valley, over 50 percent of the startups over the last decade have had an immigrant as a chief executive or lead technologist. Immigrants have co-founded firms such as Google, eBay, Intel and Yahoo, to name a few. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/177 "2011-02-16T05:59:25Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Dangerous or worth worrying about at all? No, of course not. It’s a big world and it takes all kinds to keep it turning. People don’t dislike the burqa because it looks different they dislike it because they view it as a symbol of oppression. I agree, it’s not anything to really worry about. I’ve only seen one woman in the U.S. wearing a burqa and if I ever see another I’ll be surprised. I suppose it does take all kinds to keep the world turning but I don’t think all cultural traditions are of equal value. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/178 "2011-02-16T06:41:15Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, you are just ignoring what I’m actually saying in favor of your own strawman. The goal of this is to “protect our culture” by crushing any and all differences, to force everyone to conform with an officially mandated, state defined “real” American culture. Because apparently American culture is so weak and undesirable that merely speaking a different language than English or wearing “foreign” clothing will destroy it. HA! The only one ignoring what you’ve been saying is you. Read over our exchange. I presented the scenario of a country taking the one (and sensible) and only step of declaring an official language. You claimed some nonsense that that would require, or lead to, the use of force. And now you backpedal, but try to cover yourself by using the word here in a more benign manner. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/179 "2011-02-16T07:30:15Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Seems to me that lands don’t have, or should not have, rights - people do. Imposing retroactive ethnic purity on a country to restore it to some kind of historic norm is the sort of attitude that started much of the whole WW2 mess in the first place. Basically, the Baltic states went back to _jus sanguinis_ citizenship, which is not an unusual thing as far as countries go. But that’s not the same thing as imposing ethnic purity. Their residents, including the ethnic Russians, can acquire citizenship provided they fulfill a few conditions, which (if I look at [Estonian nationality law](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_nationality_law) for an example) includes showing some knowledge of civics and of the national language. In other words, they have to take a few steps to fulfill their side of the social contract, and if they do so they can become citizens equal to all others. I cannot view this as unreasonable. Russians have nearly a whole continent in which they can live with full citizenship rights if they’re not interested in knowing any language other than Russian. Even in the Russian Federation’s national republics, use of Russian is prevalent and the nominal national language is in many cases endangered. If Estonians and Latvians want to feel at home in their country, instead of feeling they are somewhere in the middle of Russia, they have the right and the ability to do something about it. > [@even\_sven](#): > > Do you maintain the same scorn for your run of the mill agoraphobic who avoid being out in public? I don’t scorn people with disabilities. But as I’ve said, I wouldn’t favour banning the burqa both because it wouldn’t be productive and because it’d violate values of free speech and equality before the law in which I believe. I’m more likely to view women in burqas as victims, and support societal efforts to provide them with information about their rights. The right not to tolerate abuse from their spouse, for example. This said, I still think the idea behind the wearing of a burqa is incompatible with Western liberal values, especially that of gender equality, and isn’t something we should encourage. This is why I don’t think we should go out of our way to accommodate this practice. It’s not a great demonstration of cultural diversity, it’s a problem we have to deal with as a society in the fairest way possible. Being a punk girl doesn’t require any special accommodation, and if it did I’d probably say you’re on your own about it. Philosophically it doesn’t seem to be based in any way on values of inequality. I suppose some might say it’s a rejection of American culture, but dominant cultures often attract opposition, for more or less valid reasons. It’s not comparable. > [@](#): > > How do you know any given person “rejects all aspects of being part of society?” Again, there are absolutely no restriction on what veiled women do in single-sex environments. That woman in a burqa may well be doing a number of civic activities that you know nothing about. There is more to society than just walking around outside. I suppose you can find burqa-wearing women who are active community leaders, and maybe you do know some of them, but I don’t think they’re very common though. And it doesn’t change my view of the practice. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That principle suffices, I think, for everything in the middle. Is speaking Spanish inherently objectionable–that is, does it hurt anyone? No, so it’s legal. Does wearing nose rings, Nazi tattoos, t-shirts that mock gay people, leather jackets with flaming skulls, or burqas hurt people? No, so it’s legal. Does severely beating a child as a form of discipline hurt people? Yes, so it’s illegal. We don’t need to talk about whether the person beating their child is doing so because of some proverb in the Bible, or whether the person wearing a Nazi tattoo is doing so because of an adoration for Hitler. All we need to know is whether the act is causing harm. I can get behind that. I don’t think a society should have to go out of its way to accommodate cultural or religious practices when it is too much of an imposition, but if it isn’t, we may find it to be a good idea. The idea is weighing the good and the bad, not giving some kind of special reverence to practices because they are mandated by specific cultural or religious backgrounds. This said, what causes harm can be a matter of debate. As an American, you’re probably more on the individualist side of things, as evidenced by your toleration of Nazi or anti-gay speech as harmless. To Americans, the individual freedom of expression is paramount. But even in the US, some kinds of speech are not tolerated, threats for example. Members of less individualistic cultures may view speech that would be tolerable to Americans as inacceptable. And even when we don’t want to make something illegal, it doesn’t mean we have to actively encourage it. I think you should learn to communicate in the national language when moving into a new society. This doesn’t mean I think it should be illegal not to, just that I won’t shed any tears if you’re having trouble communicating with your neighbours or with the government, or if you’re ever told that you cannot become a citizen unless you do learn it. > [@](#): > > I can certainly see deciding that my hometown won’t keep a full-time Greek translator on staff: the expense of this endeavor wouldn’t be justified by the payoff, given the miniscule Greek immigrant population in my town. It makes total sense to have some folks fluent in Spanish, Ukrainian, and Moldovan on staff, though, sense we have such large immigrant populations from those areas: the expense of keeping those folks on staff would be justified by the government’s ability to conduct business with those communities. > > And yes, the immigrants could struggle to learn English. A lot of them would fail, but we could make their lives miserable for failing. To what end? Well frankly, if you’re failing to learn the language of your community, it’s because you’re not really trying. You figure you can get by without the effort and maybe you’re right. But if you put yourself into a situation where you had to learn it, you would. Of course it may take some time, so I’d agree that there is a societal benefit to accommodating you (by providing translators, for example) while you’re still learning. And I’d even say that the society has a duty towards you, and should provide you with the opportunity to learn. But you on the other hand have a duty (maybe not a legal one, but I’d say a moral one) to take this opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047/180 "2011-02-16T09:31:46Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > Well frankly, if you’re failing to learn the language of your community, it’s because you’re not really trying. Nonsense, it’s always been quite common for first generation immigrants to learn little to none of the local language. It’s a difficult task, however easily it is dismissed by the people who don’t expect to be the ones doing it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiculturalism-has-failed-say-european-leaders/571047.md?page=10)