# Multiple Shootings At Fort Hood **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 5, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiple-shootings-at-fort-hood/516472 "2009-11-05T21:09:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiple-shootings-at-fort-hood/516472/141 "2009-11-06T15:56:25Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > His family has been adamant that he was born a Muslim, not a convert. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > [He evidently wasn’t a Muslim.](http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/05/reports-of-mass-shooting-at-fort-hood/?hp) I’m so confused. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiple-shootings-at-fort-hood/516472/142 "2009-11-06T15:56:30Z")
I say that nobody blames Christianity when Christians blow shit up and shoot people, therefore it isn’t fair to blame Islam if a Muslim does it. You actually think the literal semantics of that first sentence is worth arguing with? ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiple-shootings-at-fort-hood/516472/143 "2009-11-06T15:57:26Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Right. He really wasn’t motivated by violent Islamist sentiments. And there isn’t a substantial cadre of others like him. > > Cite? 'Cause I provided one for his being a violent Islamist, the latest in a series. Are you in full possession of all of the facts or just the facts that support your position? As others have said, all the evidence/data is not in and it is premature to come to any conclusions as to the guy’s motivation. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiple-shootings-at-fort-hood/516472/144 "2009-11-06T15:57:44Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > As much as you must be looking forward to Kristallnacht USA, let’s wait until some more evidence comes in, 'mkay? Godwin in the house. No, not okay. When have actual argument come back. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiple-shootings-at-fort-hood/516472/145 "2009-11-06T15:58:25Z")
> [@Epimetheus](#): > > I’m so confused. His military record says “No religious preference,” but his family says he’s always been a Muslim. I posted the first item before I became aware of the second item. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiple-shootings-at-fort-hood/516472/146 "2009-11-06T16:01:02Z")
> [@tacoloco](#): > > Are you in full possession of all of the facts or just the facts that support your position? No. I process facts as they come in. Are you aware of what I-95 looks like in Maine? How dare you navigate I-95 Northbound in Maryland! Actually, it turns out, you can reach some pretty reasonable and reliable conclusions about how to drive I-95 before driving the entire length of it. Facts in my possession significantly suggest an Islam-based motivation. They may also suggest a mental-illness based motivation. They may suggest both, _pace_ **Bricker**. Hell, they may suggest a corellation between Islamic belief and mental illness. But (and I repeat) zero non-Islamist-motivated killers shout out Islamic battle cries, a non-zero percentage of Islamist killers do. Data point. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiple-shootings-at-fort-hood/516472/147 "2009-11-06T16:07:29Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Hell, they may suggest a corellation between Islamic belief and mental illness. But (and I repeat) zero non-Islamist-motivated killers shout out Islamic battle cries, a non-zero percentage of Islamist killers do. Data point. “God is great” is not a battle cry. Millions upon millions use it every day on multiple occasions. > [@](#): > > The phrase is said during each stage of both obligatory prayers, which are supposed to be performed five times a day, and supererogatory prayers, which are performed at will. > **[Takbir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takbir)** > > The takbīr (Arabic: تَكْبِير \[tak.biːr\], lit. 'magnification \[of God\]') is the name for the Arabic phrase Allāhu ʾAkbar (Arabic: اللّٰهُ أَكْبَر \[ʔaɫ.ɫaː.hu ʔak.bar\] ⓘ, lit. 'God is the greatest \[of everything\]'). > It is a common Arabic expression, used in various contexts by Muslims around the world: in formal salah (prayer), in the adhan (Islamic call to prayer), in Hajj, as an informal expression of faith, in times of distress or joy, or to express resolute determination or defiance. The phr... ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiple-shootings-at-fort-hood/516472/148 "2009-11-06T16:07:37Z")
It’s not a data point. It’s meaningless. Religious mania is often a symptom of mental illness. that doesn’t mean that the specific religion is the_cause_ of anything. ETA what **yojimbo** said. The Takbir is not a “battle cry.” ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiple-shootings-at-fort-hood/516472/149 "2009-11-06T16:11:37Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > ETA what **yojimbo** said. The Takbir is not a “battle cry.” When Muslims embark on jihad – do they refrain from saying this? Or, do they say it? ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiple-shootings-at-fort-hood/516472/150 "2009-11-06T16:11:44Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > His military record says “No religious preference,” but his family says he’s always been a Muslim. I posted the first item before I became aware of the second item. But the OP’s link lists a quote from a local mosque saying that he often prays in his uniform. > [@](#): > > An imam from a mosque Hasan regularly attended said Hasan, a lifelong Muslim, was a committed soldier, gave no sign of extremist beliefs and regularly wore his uniform at prayers. ETA: oh, I see what you are saying now. It’s early here yet. That’s my excuse and I’m sticking to it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiple-shootings-at-fort-hood/516472/151 "2009-11-06T16:15:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I say that nobody blames Christianity when Christians blow shit up and shoot people, therefore it isn’t fair to blame Islam if a Muslim does it. > > You actually think the literal semantics of that first sentence is worth arguing with? I think if it is shown not to be strictly true, it isn’t worth arguing over. Besides, for better or worse this is a debate worth having. Does Islam promote terrorism? I don’t think it does so explicitly in the Koran. But the fact that there is no central authority in Islam coupled with the radicalization and politicization of some imams, mosques and lay Muslims makes the connection to various terrorist movements and actions quite explicit indeed. I do not know whether this is an example of such - that is far too early to tell. But that doesn’t mean that other examples don’t exist. And it is really no insult to Islam to note that al-Qaeda, for one, is a radical Islamist movement - it is just an observation and a fact that has to be dealt with - and dealt with within the Islamic faith as well. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiple-shootings-at-fort-hood/516472/152 "2009-11-06T16:15:30Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > When Muslims embark on jihad – do they refrain from saying this? Or, do they say it? That’s up to them. The fact is, that you were wrong – colossally wrong – when you said that “zero non-Islamist-motivated killers” ever say it. Virtually _all_ practicing Muslims say it multiple times a day. It’s no more a “battle cry,” than “Praise Jesus.” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiple-shootings-at-fort-hood/516472/153 "2009-11-06T16:19:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > As do I. But you’ve just asked a different question. “Religiously motivated” suggests that the prime motivator was religious, and there’s not any particular evidence for that. But the exchange that got me into this was **Magiver** ’s: _The shooting clearly has connections to his religious beliefs._ For an act to be religious terrorism, I think religion has to be the primary motive. At the moment it sounds like the primary motivation here was Hasan’s desire not to go overseas to a warzone. But I think you and I are mostly in agreement here, and a lot of the facts aren’t in yet. The “Allahu Akbar” thing is uncontradicted right now, but it’s worth pointing out that when this started, a lot of reports said there were two or three shooters, and that’s gone by the boards. ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiple-shootings-at-fort-hood/516472/154 "2009-11-06T16:20:18Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > No. I process facts as they come in. Are you aware of what I-95 looks like in Maine? How dare you navigate I-95 Northbound in Maryland! Actually, it turns out, you can reach some pretty reasonable and reliable conclusions about how to drive I-95 before driving the entire length of it. Because the mind of a killer is the EXACTLY same as driving on the highway. Good game. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Facts in my possession significantly suggest an Islam-based motivation. They may also suggest a mental-illness based motivation. They may suggest both, _pace_ **Bricker**. Hell, they may suggest a corellation between Islamic belief and mental illness. But (and I repeat) zero non-Islamist-motivated killers shout out Islamic battle cries, a non-zero percentage of Islamist killers do. Data point. “suggest”, “may”. The bottom line is you can’t draw any reasonable conclusions yet. Sadly, many people in the U.S. will automatically draw a straight line to the conclusion that the shooter was just another Islamic terrorist “confirming” their prejudices. I mean stupid people. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiple-shootings-at-fort-hood/516472/155 "2009-11-06T16:23:17Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Godwin in the house. > > No, not okay. > > When have actual argument come back. Godwin walks in the thread everytime you enter one with your nazi-linked user name. Yes, I’m still not entirely convinced your choice is/was as innocent as you’d have us believe. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiple-shootings-at-fort-hood/516472/156 "2009-11-06T16:40:22Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Godwin walks in the thread everytime you enter one with your nazi-linked user name. Take it to the Pit. Don’t make this thread into a personal argument. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiple-shootings-at-fort-hood/516472/157 "2009-11-06T16:59:43Z")
It’s not personal, but it is a fact that 88 [is used as code among Neo-Nazis to identify each other](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/88_%28number%29#As_a_Neo-Nazi_symbol) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiple-shootings-at-fort-hood/516472/158 "2009-11-06T17:02:41Z")
Yes, I know what 88 means to those people. It’s a personal comment on **Huerta88** , and if it’s going to get debated again, it won’t be in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiple-shootings-at-fort-hood/516472/159 "2009-11-06T17:02:46Z")
This is exactly what I was afraid would happen… :sigh: It’s going to be just a bit tougher to be a Muslim living in this country again. And thus by extension, it’s also going to be annoying to be Brown again as long as there are people who continue to assume Islam=Terrorism and Brown Skinned Person= Fanatical Terrorist! ☹ ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiple-shootings-at-fort-hood/516472/160 "2009-11-06T17:11:39Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Yes, I know what 88 means to those people. It’s a personal comment on **Huerta88** , and if it’s going to get debated again, it won’t be in this thread. So, if a person comes into a thread stating that a particular person or group is associated with a regime of terror, it is of no relevance to point out that the person making the claim has a dubious connection to exactly the same thing? Got it! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiple-shootings-at-fort-hood/516472.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiple-shootings-at-fort-hood/516472.md?page=9)