# Munchkin Mini Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 13, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633 "2009-02-13T02:05:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Darth\_Sensitive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58956e/32.png) [@Darth\_Sensitive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Sensitive)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/201 "2009-02-19T00:52:01Z")
Ok - back from a couple busy days. I don’t terribly wish to give up my item either at this point in time. My big question is to why **sachertorte** went to make new lists with a new seed. I didn’t see anything wrong with the first lists, what **boozahol** did looked perfectly reasonable. Maybe I’m crazy, but I guess I’m left wondering why the heck you’d want to reroll, unless someone in particular was set up for a fall. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Sensitive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58956e/32.png) [@Darth\_Sensitive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Sensitive)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/202 "2009-02-19T01:05:54Z")
Aaaaaand… Nevermind. I see why he rerolled and it seems fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/203 "2009-02-19T02:25:36Z")
> [@sinjin](#): > > **Vote Sachertorte** > A) For his “Good” slip > B) Because he is just ringing my bell with all of his posts and admonitions to players about what they should and should not do with their powers and their items. > C) For mischaracterizing my calling him out for the above. And then using that as a basis to continue to smudge me. While I’m pleased you think my idea is a good one, I went back to read the exchange between you and **sach** , and IMO you come out much the worse. The “Good” slip is troubling, I agree with you there, but that’s it. I agree with **sach** that your characterization of his idea for everyone to put their items into the hoard was…poor. I don’t see where he is continuing to smudge you. Your case looks like a bad stretch to me, although I’m not yet convinced it’s a scummy stretch. Feel free to try to change my mind. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/204 "2009-02-19T03:17:08Z")
His smudging of me isn’t obvious. It’s a couple of posts addressing me without calling me out and is a very subtle thing. > [@](#): > > Discussion doesn’t mean rabidly pursuing an end result. It means weighing the advantages and disadvantages of an action. If we Discuss and decide that a mass dump is more advantageous than detrimental then we will have done so, knowing what the disadvantages are. > [@](#): > > (Aside: This is why we discuss things. There are so many powers and items that any plan will need everyone to look at it and look for weaknesses.) > [@](#): > > Someone seems to think that sitting back and implying that others ideas are bad is useful discussion. I am the implied someone in all of these statements. And I do questions sacher’s suggestions. I posted his ever increasing list of objects that should be lynching offenses if anyone is caught with them. By the time you get to the end nearly anyone’s possession of anything could be under suspicion. He says he only meant his statements as suggestions or items for discussion. I didn’t read them that way. YMMV ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/205 "2009-02-19T03:35:36Z")
Well, I’m certainly not going to jump on anybody for generating discussion, especially about the exotic stuff like the items. Frankly I don’t like how fast **sinjin** was to jump, either, but I don’t think either player was particularly scummy. At this point I’m leaning towards lynch the lurker… except that the players with absolutely no posts I have to figure have IRL stuff going on, as we’re out of Night Zero and well into Day 1 without any posts from, say, **Blaster Master** , who is usually a prolific kind of guy. Also, has anybody run the numbers on how many mislynches we get, depending on the number of evil characters? ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/206 "2009-02-19T03:36:52Z")
Maybe I haven’t expressed myself well here. It seemed to me **sachertorte** started out wanting to ban a couple of items that would impede investigators, which makes sense. He then moved on to other items that should not be allowed based on their being anti-town, and then immediately endorsed the idea that _all_ items be placed in the hoard, but seemed to weasel about his putting his own item there. It just seemed rather self/scum serving to me. I read it as: “Let’s get all the anti-town items out of town hands and make all of them readily available for scum to grab.” ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/207 "2009-02-19T03:59:23Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > At this point I’m leaning towards lynch the lurker… except that the players with absolutely no posts I have to figure have IRL stuff going on, as we’re out of Night Zero and well into Day 1 without any posts from, say, **Blaster Master** , who is usually a prolific kind of guy. I am leaning towards lynching the lurker as well, but not **Blaster Master**. I’ve played in a lot of games with the guy, and he almost always is deathly quiet for the first day. If he goes two or three, I’d be down with lynching him, but I imagine he’ll come along shortly and post a small encyclopedia’s worth over the course of three posts. \*\* vote: zuma vote: Darth Sensitive\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/208 "2009-02-19T04:01:24Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > Also, has anybody run the numbers on how many mislynches we get, depending on the number of evil characters? We have either 4, 3 or 2 mislynches, depending on whether we have 3, 4 or 5 scum. Of course, these numbers are significantly less precise than they normally would be, because the scum-kill isn’t guaranteed. ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/209 "2009-02-19T04:05:01Z")
I see now that DS has come in and posted again. I really want him and Hawkeye to participate more, but for now I’ll [color=red **unvote: Darth Sensitive** [/color] ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/210 "2009-02-19T04:09:26Z")
And just one more point, as I stated before, my suspicion was ignited by what I perceived to be a major slip by **sachertorte**. Maybe I _am_ suffering from confirmation bias. But good og we’re playing mafia here. We can discuss item possession till jesus rises from the dead again but we still need to come up with a lynchee by Friday noon. ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/211 "2009-02-19T04:51:33Z")
> [@sinjin](#): > > And just one more point, as I stated before, my suspicion was ignited by what I perceived to be a major slip by **sachertorte**. Maybe I _am_ suffering from confirmation bias. But good og we’re playing mafia here. We can discuss item possession till jesus rises from the dead again but we still need to come up with a lynchee by Friday noon. Sorry, I’ve made similar slips plenty of times while playing as a towny: it just isn’t big enough for me to want to lynch our most effective cop, should he turn out to be Good. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/212 "2009-02-19T05:10:30Z")
Re-read my posts. Sinjin, you have severely missed the point. At no point did I try to “weasel” out of putting my item down. 1. We had not decided that a mass drop was going to happen, we were DISCUSSING it. 2. I’m not even the one who brought up the idea. I was pondering it but, Hockey Monkey introduced the possibility of everyone using Turn One to put their item into the Hoard (post #128), I was writing in response to her (post #129). > [@Hockey\_Monkey](#): > > Maybe everyone should use Turn One to place their item into the Hoard then. Then we won’t have to deal with the magical items. 😛 > [@sachertorte](#): > > The thought crossed my mind as well. I’d love for my item to end up in the Hoard. I’m not going to use it anyway since I need to spend my time investigating instead. The problem is, I need to use a Turn to put the item into the Hoard. I’m not sure if it makes sense to use a Turn for that or if we are better off having me investigate during Turn One. > > Presumably, others might feel the same way about their Turn. But I think the possibility of putting items into the Hoard should be discussed. 1. I mentioned that using a Turn to drop an item looked sub-optimal for my role, and PRESUMABLY OTHERS WOULD FEEL THE SAME WAY ABOUT THEIR ROLE. This is an argument against a mass drop. Why can you not see this? 2. At no point in time do I say that Everyone should drop their item but me. You are putting words into my mouth. How do you get everyone should drop item but me from “… I think the possibility of putting items into the Hoard should be discussed.” ??? Where have I excluded myself?! If we had decided to mass drop, I would too, and everyone would then be aware of the fact that we are giving up investigations (and other Turn actions) in order to mass drop. 3. I realized that watching is a physical action and a watcher can’t distinguish between observing someone else watching and observing someone else stealing - again bad for a mass drop. 4. I realized that passing items might be a better way to track critical items. Do you not see that all the babbling about storyteller handing off his item to tdpatriots runs counter to a mass drop? That is, we can’t do both. Why are you so focused on the fact that I entertained the idea of a mass drop, but completely ignore all points I make against a mass drop? Okay. That was therapeutic. I’ll try to be less bitchy now. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/213 "2009-02-19T05:13:25Z")
Sorry I’ve been scarce. It would make me a bit of a hypocrite to go throwing votes down for those being lurkier than I’ve been, so I’m not going to do that. Especially since they’re already getting some heat elsewhere. I’m also still inclined to keep and eye on sachertorte, and now extend that eye in sinjin’s general direction as well, if only to be fair. Theirs’ is the only real drama to be had, and drama can indicate some sort of scum angle. So far the most non-sensical (or perhaps just counter-intuitive…I need to read the post again, I think) statement I’ve read so far is Mhaye’s idea that CG folks are somehow more worrisome than anyone else, but then I’m usually more inclined not to hunt PFKs in the hopes that they decide to make decisions that end up assisting my team…unless they end up outing themselves with a slip and then claiming or otherwise gift-wrapping themselves for a lynch, in which case I’ll not hesitate to lynch them. ---
**Author:** ![Chucara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Chucara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chucara)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/214 "2009-02-19T16:32:35Z")
Ok, I need to get some votes in before we all stampede some unlucky townie. **vote Blaster Master** **vote zuma** **vote sachertorte** The first two are lurker votes obviously. Darth Sensitive is very close to falling into this pile as well, but I am (for now) willing to buy the being busy excuse. This is assuming that he starts participating, otherwise he will most likely get a vote too. Sachertorte gets a vote for a number of reasons: - The good ‘slip’ - “Suggesting” various ideas, but seemingly forgetting about the anti-town consequences of said ideas. More specifically, in 73, he wrote: “However, I also acknowledge that there might be a very good reason to keep item possessions secret. I just don’t see a strong reason yet.” The thing is, suggests two ideas: the mass claim and the mass-dump, that at least to me appear to be closer to pro-scum than pro-town. - Relying solely on lurker votes is going to give us absolutely no information while scum by a single vote can make sure we lynch a townie. I strongly urge the lurkers to start participating. The thing about the sachertorte vote is that I _really_ don’t like voting for an investigator that is hard for scum to kill. But damn sachertorte, you must admit that at least some of your ideas reek of scum agenda to someone who doesn’t know your alignment. I’m very torn on this, but on the other hand, I don’t really support a pure-lurker vote either. I’ll leave the votes there for now, and I think people should start getting some votes down to avoid last minute bandwagons. If nothing else, then just let them reflect your opinions now and come back to them later. Right now, only sachertorte looks scummy (to me), but as he himself said, he is also the only one talking. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/215 "2009-02-19T16:48:57Z")
Are you people even reading what I write? ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/216 "2009-02-19T17:01:35Z")
This “case” against **sachertorte** is awful. He may or may not be Evil, but I’m going to want to see much better evidence than this before I contribute my vote to lynching a (certain) investigative role. > [@Chucara](#): > > - The good ‘slip’ I would like to invite someone with a lot of time on their hands to try an experiment. Go back and find all the so-called “slips” of this kind on which we have variously seized. Count up the number of times these “slips” have actually been made by Scum. I will wager $10 that the percentage is less than 25%. On the other hand, I will wager that the percentage of so-called “slips” that have caused at least one Scum to vote for the putative slipper approaches 100%. And thus, I am at least as suspicious of those emphasizing this slip as a reason for voting - notably Chucara and sinjin - as I am of sachertorte for making it. > [@](#): > > - “Suggesting” various ideas, but seemingly forgetting about the anti-town consequences of said ideas. More specifically, in 73, he wrote: “However, I also acknowledge that there might be a very good reason to keep item possessions secret. I just don’t see a strong reason yet.” > The thing is, suggests two ideas: the mass claim and the mass-dump, that at least to me appear to be closer to pro-scum than pro-town. This is excruciating. Really? _Really?_ **sach** has been promoting _discussion_ on these issues, carefully trying to look at all the possible sides of each possible strategy. This is what we do _in every single game._ Discussion of mass claims of one kind or another has occurred in _every single game._ The conversation was going to happen here; it always does. **sach** brought it up, and has been turning the ideas over, trying to analyze them and generate conversation. These are _good things,_ for crying out loud. What was the alternative? Sit here in silence? Offer no opinion? > [@](#): > > The thing about the sachertorte vote is that I _really_ don’t like voting for an investigator that is hard for scum to kill. But damn sachertorte, you must admit that at least some of your ideas reek of scum agenda to someone who doesn’t know your alignment. I’m very torn on this, but on the other hand, I don’t really support a pure-lurker vote either. The above paragraph reads like waffling to me. _I’m going to vote for sach, I hate to do it, but gosh, he sure does look Scummy to someone who doesn’t know his alignment, someone like me, I sure don’t know his alignment, how could I know his alignment? But I don’t like the vote, so I’m ready to blow whatever way the wind does._ **vote Chucara vote sinjin** Because while sach may or may not be Scum, the arguments against sach are scummy. **sinjin** , for her part, has not accurately represented sach’s contributions in my mind. And again, I think that it’s exceedingly likely that the “good” slip - whether or not it was a real slip - will have generated at least one Evil vote by now. Let’s see if I’m right. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/217 "2009-02-19T17:05:29Z")
I’ve been reading what you’ve written. Even the stuff where you are calling me stupid and yelling at me.🆒 Hey, I voted you 4th not 1st so it’s not like its a big deal. I’m not so stupid that I think town is going to lynch an investigator on day one. I wanted my suspicions out there and my vote in blue so that when I end up dead people will know how I felt about you. Before you went on your last tirade I even said that I might have had confirmation bias because I went back and looked at your posts after I noticed your slip. Have you been reading my posts? unvote sachertorte Because I’ve made my point. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/218 "2009-02-19T17:12:12Z")
And I see that **storyteller** has voted me while I was typing, so it goes. I’m not even going to argue anymore. My role isn’t very important and I’m a Lawful so I can win if even if I’m dead. ---
**Author:** ![Chucara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Chucara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chucara)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/219 "2009-02-19T17:28:18Z")
Seriously storyteller? You’re voting me because I voted for someone who is an investigator? Should we all vote for you now then for doing the same? I won’t move my vote due to your opinions, I think sachertortes play is as scummy as it gets on day one, and if I do decide to move my vote, it will be on my own terms. I completely agree (and stated it in my vote) that there is a high risk in lynching sachertorte, and I wouldn’t do so if I didn’t find his actions scummy. Voting for someone for stating their suspiscions is a very bad play for town. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/220 "2009-02-19T17:28:41Z")
\ Thanks to storyteller, and a late thanks to ShadowFacts for posting calming and reasonable posts before I had a chance to make an ass (bigger ass?) of myself. The “take a walk before blowing a gasket” policy is working quite well for me. \ Sinjin, I was trying to make a conscious effort not to call anyone stupid in this game. Such behavior is uncalled for and a poor reflection of me. I apologize for my bad behavior. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633.md?page=12)