# Munchkin Mini Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 13, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633 "2009-02-13T02:05:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/561 "2009-02-24T18:47:12Z")
Jesus, I can’t finish a post. The incomplete sentence should read: “I just want it on the record that this is neither evidence that I am Good, nor evidence that I am not.” ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/562 "2009-02-24T18:48:38Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > So a few things: I am sometimes insulted at the lame-ass plans people try to attribute me as Scum. Doing what you say to earn “pro-Town credit” would have been less than worthless; no one gives “pro-Town credit” in these games for anything anymore. Second, the quality of your argument is undermined somewhat by the fact that I, specifically argued that the Curse on you be lifted. I still think it should be (see below). If I wanted you dead, why would I do this? I think scum get insulted by lame ass reasons on them more than town do in my experience, but that is pretty anecdotal. I will say I remember having these arguments with you, and you are arguing my side. Now maybe you have changed your mind or adjusted your opinion on changing circumstances, but I remember you saying how we lost Marvel by not appearing townie enough. Changes of rationalle from game to game are a good sign of different alignments. Oh and that last part’s easy. You didn’t think your argument would win. > [@](#): > > Of course, if both Clerics are Scum, Cursing either wouldn’t be an option. Do we know the scum can’t curse their own? ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/563 "2009-02-24T18:52:43Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > I think scum get insulted by lame ass reasons on them more than town do in my experience, but that is pretty anecdotal. I will say I remember having these arguments with you, and you are arguing my side. Now maybe you have changed your mind or adjusted your opinion on changing circumstances, but I remember you saying how we lost Marvel by not appearing townie enough. Changes of rationalle from game to game are a good sign of different alignments. Oh and that last part’s easy. You didn’t think your argument would win. Eh. Whatever. I didn’t say that “trying to appear Townie” was a bad idea; I said that the way **tdpats** is suggesting I’d go about it would have been a terrible plan. Trying to appear Townie is a good idea - it’s the only way to play effectively as Scum. Using elaborate, stretched plans to do it, on the other hand, is sloppy play. But you know what? I can read the handwriting on the wall as well as anyone. Do what you have to do; as I said, it’s no great loss for the Town, other than the mislynch. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/564 "2009-02-24T18:56:28Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > In general, I would warn against this. I understand the temptation, but following such a policy gives Scum an easy escape to vote with someone who is most definitely Town and absolve ones-self of responsibility. If all townies vote together you have a chance of finding scum. If townies are splilt as much as ours appear to be (leader has what 3?) even if every town votes for a scum, the scum could easily force a lynch of a townie. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/565 "2009-02-24T18:57:31Z")
Quick storyteller points: storyteller says he voted for sinjin because he thought someone who is Evil would have voted for me for my “slip.” I think that’s an even worse reason for voting for sinjin than the reason I had attributed to storyteller. He also twists my words “scrutinize sinjin the way he has” to mean I’m punishing him for scrutinizing sinjin at all. No. That’s not what I mean, and it is not what I said. I said I found the way storyteller scrutinized sinjin makes me think he is scum. Not that he scrutinized, but the artificial feeling I get from his analysis. I think storyteller has a higher standard than what he demonstrated in accusing sinjin. I have only seen storyteller lower his standards when he is scum. ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/566 "2009-02-24T18:57:42Z")
To vote or not to vote, that is the question? - Who am I kidding? Trying to justify not voting just because I am stuck (again) would pull 10 (±1) players down on my head Tomorrow. The Lylo problem. The question is, are we there right now? No. back in Turn 1, Sach broke down the chances of there being a given number of Evil players; 5 in 36 of five Evil, 26 chances in 36 of four and 5 in 36 of three. There are thirteen players, and a maximum of five are Evil. However, if TDPats dies from the Curse and comes up Good, then we disintegrate _two_ Good players we are down to 10 players. If there are five Evil players, they win at that point. We need to play around this by Disintegrating _ **no more than one player** _ this Turn. Ties are a disaster. Therefore, no matter who I might decide is Evil and vote for, I will prioritise breaking ties with my vote. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/567 "2009-02-24T19:00:21Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > If all townies vote together you have a chance of finding scum. If townies are splilt as much as ours appear to be (leader has what 3?) even if every town votes for a scum, the scum could easily force a lynch of a townie. That’s an interesting perspective, but I think you are wrong. Does it make sense for scum to do so? If every town votes for scum, then in order for scum to lynch a townie, the scum would need to pile on a townie, thus revealing their identities. Heck, if I could vote in a way such that we end up with a townie dead and all scum voting for that townie, I would totally take that deal. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/568 "2009-02-24T19:06:17Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > That’s an interesting perspective, but I think you are wrong. Does it make sense for scum to do so? If every town votes for scum, then in order for scum to lynch a townie, the scum would need to pile on a townie, thus revealing their identities. Heck, if I could vote in a way such that we end up with a townie dead and all scum voting for that townie, I would totally take that deal. How exactly would that reveal their idenities? If say Hockey get’s lynched at 4 votes, and all those voters happen to be scum, how would you figure that out? Everyone assumes scum will split their votes up, which means scum rarely get suspected of voting together. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/569 "2009-02-24T19:06:56Z")
> [@tdpatriots12](#): > > So as I’m about to be an ex-participant, I got to thinking about why the scum chose to Curse me. As **sach** pointed out, there doesn’t seem to be much benefit (especially in the long term) to doing so. So pondering the short term benefits, who wins? tdpatriots confuses me. During the previous Turn he predicted that he would be Cursed and seemed pretty sure it would happen too. But now that he is Cursed, he agrees with me that the reasons don’t seem to pan out. Huh? Confusion does not equate to scum-ness, but I am so confused by this that it bothers me. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/570 "2009-02-24T19:09:51Z")
Hawkeyeop, according to Pleonast’s count, you are currently voting for Chucara and storyteller.Also, Chucara and storyteller are tied. Do you intend to kill off both storyteller and Chucara? ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/571 "2009-02-24T19:14:10Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > Hawkeyeop, according to Pleonast’s count, you are currently voting for Chucara and storyteller.Also, Chucara and storyteller are tied. > > Do you intend to kill off both storyteller and Chucara? No I don’t want to lynch both. What is the current count? I can’t view Googe Docs from work. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/572 "2009-02-24T19:14:54Z")
Turn Two Starts Friday 20 February, noon PT. Ends Tuesday 24 February, noon PT. Items in the Hoard: Rod of Disintegration (unstealable) Amulet of Reflection Orb of Healing Votes as of post 570. Three Votes Chucara: storyteller0910 (216), Hawkeyeop (282), Zsofia (506) storyteller0910: sachertorte (525), tdpatriots12 (552), Hawkeyeop (557) Two Votes Hawkeyeop: Hockey Monkey (415), Chucara (498) ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies: Boozahol Squid, P.I. (461), sinjin (499) sinjin: storyteller0910 (216), ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies (509) Hockey Monkey: ShadowFacts (482), [ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies (508)-(509)], sachertorte (525) One Vote Zsofia: Chucara (498) Boozahol Squid, P.I.: ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies (508) Zero Votes MHaye: [ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies (226)-(453)] Darth Sensitive: [Boozahol Squid, P.I. (207)-(514)] sachertorte: [Hockey Monkey (415)-(518)] ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/573 "2009-02-24T19:19:52Z")
Thanks. I think I’d rather wait until the Tdpats situation plays out (If he isn’t dead, I’ll likely be less suspicious of Story), so for now I’ll unvote Storyteller I don’t feel real comfortable with 3 votes being enough to lynch though,and we have major risks of ties. Like say someone unvotes Chucara at the last minute. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/574 "2009-02-24T19:23:30Z")
OK. Let’s try something else: I will not defend myself further. **Mhaye** , anyone undecided, please vote for me. A tie would indeed be disastrous, so let’s get me well and truly in the lead. If we’re at lylo, this will lose the game, but chances are, we’re not. I have some dedicated people who’ve decided I need to die, and I’m too sick and too tired to hash this out over the course of the next hour. So. In about an hour, I’ll be dead, and my alignment (Lawful Good) will be known. At that point, I would ask everyone to re-read the following, this time knowing that I am arguing in good faith. * * * Let’s review how I came to be on the chopping block. Let’s review it knowing that I am Town, because if you’re reading this after 3:00, you know that now. - At post #525, **sach** mentions me in a suspicious light for the first time ever. His stated reasons for finding me suspicious are threefold: 1. I’ve been “unusually quiet.” 2. My case against sinjin. Sach mis-states my case against her, arguing that I voted for her “because she voiced suspicion of [sach].” Interestingly, he goes on to vote for me because I voiced suspicion of sinjin. Sach didn’t like my reasons for voting for sinjin the same way I didn’t like sinjin’s reasons for voting for sach. Think about that a bit, see if it strikes you the way it strikes me. 3. Generalized “oddness,” regarding my exchange with tdpats and my references to my killing ability. Can’t really respond to these; I see nothing odd in the exchange with tdpats and the killing references were more for fun than anything else. In this post, **sach** references the whole affair of the Helm of Empathy, and how I passed it to **tdpats** and that doesn’t mean anything because I could be evil and doing that for Town cred and blah blah blah. The following is a bit of meta-gaming, but: in many previous Forbidden Threads, **sach** has argued vigorously and at great length that players who do very pro-Town things when they could otherwise _do nothing_ should be regarded as likely pro-Town. He has abandoned that position here, though, which is interesting. And remember, sach _explicitly states_ that the thing with the Helm isn’t evidence of anything, as far as he is concerned. Time passes. - At #552, **tdpats** comes along with a hypothesis that he pulls - with all due respect - neatly and cleanly from his rectum, one backed by literally no evidence. **tdpats** is almost surely Town, so I don’t know why he does this, but remember: he has no evidence to believe that his working theory on why the Scum did what they did is true. - Here comes Hawk at #557. He says **tdpats** ’ “case” is credible. What case? There is no case here. Idle speculation on “why the Scum did X” is just that: idle speculation. **Hawk** knows this. He happily leaps into the “make up random stories with no evidentiary support” pool with **tdpats** , inventing a brand new reality at post #564. All of this absolutely _reeks_ of Scum seeing an opportunity to get a Town player lynched in a hurry, while sheltering comfortably behind a likely-Town player (“I’m voting this way because tdpats is probably Town, and, uh, his case is credible. Yeah, that’s it; that’s the ticket”). - **sach** at #560, and this is interesting: > [@](#): > > Also, I’m surprised people are following me on the storyteller line-of-thought. That’s refreshing. Please re-read the above, and see if you agree with the following statement: no one is following sach at all, in any sense other than the vote. The arguments used to support tdpats’ and Hawk’s votes for me - arguments based on the fiction that I used the Helm to gain Town cred - are arguments that sachertorte _explicitly and directly disavowed as evidence that I am evil._ But he does not notice this, nor call it out as bad reasoning even though he himself didn’t like it as evidence of Evil. Why not? I submit it’s because he has the result he wants - people voting for me - and it doesn’t much matter why. Bit more of sach, to sum up: > [@](#): > > storyteller says he voted for sinjin because he thought someone who is Evil would have voted for me for my “slip.” I think that’s an even worse reason for voting for sinjin than the reason I had attributed to storyteller. I disagree. Care to outline _why?_ Care to acknowledge that you misrepresented my argument in the first place? Nah - you want to encourage the dogpile, which is reasonable, because I think you’re probably Scum. So there it is - my last testament, as it were. Take it for what it’s worth: I have no extra information, so the foregoing is just my opinion. I think either **sachertorte** or **hawkeyeop** is almost certain to be Scum, and possibly both of them - and my mild residual suspicion of **Chucara** and **sinjin** remains. * * * Oh, and a tie would be a bad thing, so: **unvote Chucara** **vote Hawkeyeop** **vote sachertorte** ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/575 "2009-02-24T19:29:58Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > in many previous Forbidden Threads, **sach** has argued vigorously and at great length that players who do very pro-Town things when they could otherwise _do nothing_ should be regarded as likely pro-Town. I’ve never said that. The point I make in forbidden threads is that actions that create controversy or “heat” when the player could have done nothing instead are likely indicators of Townness. This is in no way equal to “doing pro-Town” things. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/576 "2009-02-24T19:32:00Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > I’ve never said that. The point I make in forbidden threads is that actions that create controversy or “heat” when the player could have done nothing instead are likely indicators of Townness. This is in no way equal to “doing pro-Town” things. OK. I’m not going to argue with you, because I think you’re Scum. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/577 "2009-02-24T19:33:28Z")
When I said that people following me on the storyteller thing being refreshing, I meant usually people ignore me. i.e., its _refreshing_ that people are listening to me about storyteller instead of _burying their heads in the sand_. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/578 "2009-02-24T19:33:53Z")
Here comes Hawk at #557. He says **tdpats** ’ “case” is credible. What case? There is no case here. Idle speculation on “why the Scum did X” is just that: idle speculation. **Hawk** knows this. He happily leaps into the “make up random stories with no evidentiary support” pool with **tdpats** , inventing a brand new reality at post #564. All of this absolutely _reeks_ of Scum seeing an opportunity to get a Town player lynched in a hurry, while sheltering comfortably behind a likely-Town player (“I’m voting this way because tdpats is probably Town, and, uh, his case is credible. Yeah, that’s it; that’s the ticket”). I said I found it more credible. Major difference. We don’t have a lot to go on, so the bar isn’t terribly high. Besides why would a scum be desperate to lynch you. Clearly their are any number of players who scum could easily get lynched. I would tend to doubt that they are all scum. You don’t have an item or, as you say, any special power. You think the scum would bother to make up things to come after you? Your theories are pretty much OMGUS. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/579 "2009-02-24T19:35:09Z")
Take two > [@Storyteller](#): > > Here comes Hawk at #557. He says **tdpats** ’ “case” is credible. What case? There is no case here. Idle speculation on “why the Scum did X” is just that: idle speculation. **Hawk** knows this. He happily leaps into the “make up random stories with no evidentiary support” pool with **tdpats** , inventing a brand new reality at post #564. All of this absolutely _reeks_ of Scum seeing an opportunity to get a Town player lynched in a hurry, while sheltering comfortably behind a likely-Town player (“I’m voting this way because tdpats is probably Town, and, uh, his case is credible. Yeah, that’s it; that’s the ticket”). I said I found it more credible. Major difference. We don’t have a lot to go on, so the bar isn’t terribly high. Besides why would a scum be desperate to lynch you. Clearly their are any number of players who scum could easily get lynched. I would tend to doubt that they are all scum. You don’t have an item or, as you say, any special power. You think the scum would bother to make up things to come after you? Your theories are pretty much OMGUS. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/580 "2009-02-24T19:35:14Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > Here comes Hawk at #557. He says **tdpats** ’ “case” is credible. What case? There is no case here. Idle speculation on “why the Scum did X” is just that: idle speculation. **Hawk** knows this. He happily leaps into the “make up random stories with no evidentiary support” pool with **tdpats** , inventing a brand new reality at post #564. All of this absolutely _reeks_ of Scum seeing an opportunity to get a Town player lynched in a hurry, while sheltering comfortably behind a likely-Town player (“I’m voting this way because tdpats is probably Town, and, uh, his case is credible. Yeah, that’s it; that’s the ticket”). > > I said I found it more credible. Major difference. We don’t have a lot to go on, so the bar isn’t terribly high. > > Besides why would a scum be desperate to lynch you. Clearly their are any number of players who scum could easily get lynched. I would tend to doubt that they are all scum. You don’t have an item or, as you say, any special power. You think the scum would bother to make up things to come after you? Your theories are pretty much OMGUS. OK. I’m not going to argue with you, either, because again, I think you’re Scum. In about twenty minutes, folks will be able to judge my arguments for themselves, knowing my alignment. I’m comfortable with that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633.md?page=30)