# Munchkin Mini Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 13, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633 "2009-02-13T02:05:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/681 "2009-02-26T18:12:14Z")
\*\*Sachertorte \*\*was active till the end of the day. He could have switched his investigation back to \*\*Chucara \*\*when it became clear that \*\*storyteller \*\*or \*\*hawkeyeop \*\*were neck and neck to go down. But he did not. He instead stuck with his investigation of **Hockey Monkey**. That wasn’t clear until Darth came in at the very end of the day. If Story switched back to Chucara, which I briefly tried to get him to do, Chucara would likely have been lynched. > [@](#): > > I am also concerned about those who are voting for someone other than **Hockey Monkey** or \*\*sachertorte \*\*at this point. We don’t want a tie and we know that either one or both of them are Evil. Yes, I said both. The reptilian part of my brain keeps whispering in my ear “What if this is just a scum ploy to give one of them immense town cred when we may be close to lylo?” I know, I know “scum would never do that.”:dubious: What exactly is so bad about a multi lynch? Lynches are pro-town. More lynches is good for town. The only issue is that ties are easy to manipulate late in the day, so we would need to be very careful. I do think it is worth considering lynching both Sach and HM. 1 for 1 are good trades for town, though it might be too late in the game for that. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/682 "2009-02-26T18:14:04Z")
Crap, I didn’t want to cut off part of your quote. > [@](#): > > When I switched to Hockey Monkey Chucara was one vote below Hawkeyeop. One vote would be all it would take to kill Chucara too. I wasn’t going to risk it. When I changed to Hockey Monkey that was my THIRD PM to Pleonast. Forgive me for not sending a FOURTH. And what makes Hockey Monkey such a Bad Choice for me? Why is investigating Chucara okay but investigating Hockey Monkey demonstrably anti-Town? ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/683 "2009-02-26T18:18:32Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > \*\*Sachertorte \*\*was active till the end of the day. He could have switched his investigation back to \*\*Chucara \*\*when it became clear that \*\*storyteller \*\*or \*\*hawkeyeop \*\*were neck and neck to go down. But he did not. He instead stuck with his investigation of **Hockey Monkey**. > > That wasn’t clear until Darth came in at the very end of the day. If Story switched back to Chucara, which I briefly tried to get him to do, Chucara would likely have been lynched. > > What exactly is so bad about a multi lynch? Lynches are pro-town. More lynches is good for town. The only issue is that ties are easy to manipulate late in the day, so we would need to be very careful. I do think it is worth considering lynching both Sach and HM. 1 for 1 are good trades for town, though it might be too late in the game for that. I’m a bit worried about being at lylo and offing two townies. I was thinking of people voting for those other than \*\*Hockey \*\*or **sacher**. Based on my ‘lizard whisperer’ I am totally down with voting for them both. **vote Hockey Monkey** ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/684 "2009-02-26T18:27:46Z")
> [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](#): > > **Vote ShadowFacts too** > > Hmm…I wonder what’s going to happen when I post my exhaustive list? I’ll hazzard a guess that it will somehow conflict with what you would define as “Golly, gee” and your vote is going to stay on me, because your buddy sachertorte’s gambit isn’t going as well as was hoped over on the Evil boards. > > If you can rally me into the noose with this charade, the game was already over. Pssst. You’ve got a little OMGUS stuck in your…no, other side…yeah, right there…no, no you didn’t get it…a little to the left…my left… I hate when that happens, so embarrassing. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/685 "2009-02-26T18:32:39Z")
> [@sinjin](#): > > Are you really saying you didn’t change your investigation back to _YOUR_ fisrt choice because you didn’t want to send \*\*Pleo \*\*another PM? Really? Gee. Send Pleonast a PM to switch back to Chucara or stick with Hockey Monkey who I know isn’t going to die? Each time I changed my choice I changed it because I realized the person I was investigating was slated to DIE. Hockey Monkey was not going to die so I didn’t feel the need to change it, yet again. DUH. ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/686 "2009-02-26T18:38:38Z")
> [@Chucara](#): > > **Hawkeyeop, Zsofia, Boozahol Squid, P.I.,** and **Hockey Monkey** are all still voting for people other than MH and sachertorte. If you still think these are good lynch candidates, by all means keep voting. Otherwise I don’t think we should risk a last minute scum vote rush as we are either at lylo or very close to, and a “rigged election” could lose the game for us. If the scum want to rig an election, they have a good opportunity without having to delve into doing funny stuff with other players than the main two candidates. As is I still do think that Cookies is a good lynch target, and her actions toDay haven’t done much to sway me otherwise. THe one thing I think I might look at, with the dearth of hard evidence one way or another on Hockey and sache, is to look at who’s voting for each. While I don’t think that the scum would all dog-pile on the townie, I imagine that most of them would. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/687 "2009-02-26T18:51:59Z")
> [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](#): > > While I don’t think that the scum would all dog-pile on the townie, I imagine that most of them would. No. Absolutely not. Whichever one is Evil (HM or me) is toast. Either this Turn or the next. [I know, theoretically the game could end on this Turn, but I doubt it]. Piling on the Townie is not what Evil will do. Evil will try and make as little footprint as possible. They will go whereever the Town goes. If it looks like Town is going to lynch me, Evil will go with that. If Town is going to lynch HM, Evil will back that too. Evil will go. the way the wind blows. If Evil does pile on the Townie to win the game this Turn, then there isn’t really anything we can do about that now is there? ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/688 "2009-02-26T19:02:46Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > No. The game was over when you decided its okay to vote for people without saying why. Would you rather I not vote at all? That can be arranged. Let’s take a poll… Who wants to lynch me now? Who will want to lynch me if I don’t quote some “Golly, gee” posts? Who will want to lynch me if I do quote some “Golly, gee” posts, but they don’t convince you? Who will want to lynch me if I vote for both HM and sachertorte? Who will want to lynch me if I just don’t vote? I have a certain amount of suspicion from past Turns that can be stoked. I’m not lurking, and speak my mind which makes me open for needling, especially when I have an admittedly weak case. This, I believe, is why I’m garnering heat. I certainly am not single-handedly loosing this game for Good, despite assertions otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/689 "2009-02-26T19:07:27Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > No. Absolutely not. Whichever one is Evil (HM or me) is toast. Either this Turn or the next. [I know, theoretically the game could end on this Turn, but I doubt it]. Piling on the Townie is not what Evil will do. Evil will try and make as little footprint as possible. They will go whereever the Town goes. If it looks like Town is going to lynch me, Evil will go with that. If Town is going to lynch HM, Evil will back that too. Evil will go. the way the wind blows. > > If Evil does pile on the Townie to win the game this Turn, then there isn’t really anything we can do about that now is there? I don’t think there is such a thing as an “Evil footprint” in this game, certainly not comparable to the more traditional scum footprint. ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/690 "2009-02-26T21:11:49Z")
> [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](#): > > I don’t think there is such a thing as an “Evil footprint” in this game, certainly not comparable to the more traditional scum footprint. What, exactly, does this mean? You think that ‘Evil’ players are acting differently than normal ‘scum’ players would? Why? ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/691 "2009-02-26T21:18:12Z")
I’ve not seen another game that had potentially pfk-esque players able to participate on the scum boards. I have no idea what the dynamics are like on the Evil boards, and they could very well be acting just like regular old scum over there, but I don’t think it is safe to assume that is what they’re doing. ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/692 "2009-02-26T22:25:34Z")
> [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](#): > > I’ve not seen another game that had potentially pfk-esque players able to participate on the scum boards. I have no idea what the dynamics are like on the Evil boards, and they could very well be acting just like regular old scum over there, but I don’t think it is safe to assume that is what they’re doing. What effect should your suggestion have in our scum-hunting? Should we assume that because scum in this game might be less apt to work well together, that we shouldn’t be looking for unified subgroups amongst people? ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Sensitive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58956e/32.png) [@Darth\_Sensitive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Sensitive)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/693 "2009-02-26T22:48:49Z")
> [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](#): > > Would you rather I not vote at all? That can be arranged. Let’s take a poll… > > Who wants to lynch me now? > \*\*Who will want to lynch me if I don’t quote some “Golly, gee” posts? > \*\*Who will want to lynch me if I do quote some “Golly, gee” posts, but they don’t convince you? > Who will want to lynch me if I vote for both HM and sachertorte? > Who will want to lynch me if I just don’t vote? > > I have a certain amount of suspicion from past Turns that can be stoked. I’m not lurking, and speak my mind which makes me open for needling, especially when I have an admittedly weak case. This, I believe, is why I’m garnering heat. > > I certainly am not single-handedly loosing this game for Good, despite assertions otherwise. Right now, it’s just a smudge. And not even a good one, from my point of view. If you can at least show me where you’re coming from, it’d be a huge improvement. Giving us those ‘golly, gee’ posts gives us something more to go on, and shouldn’t be too hard for you either. That said, you’re not prime material today, and I need to go back and reread HM and sachertorte after my shift tonight and come down on a side. ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/694 "2009-02-26T23:07:31Z")
I’m currently reviewing Storyteller’s self-defence posts at the end of Day 2, in the knowledge that he was in fact Good and therefore not out to deceive us. Post [post=10868530]555[/post]. Storyteller’s belief that Team Evil would not curse a Cleric is founded on an erroneous assumption; the belief that a Cleric cannot cure themselves. They can in fact do so, as the Cleric power description explicitly notes. An Evil Cleric could easily claim to be Cursed, then “heal” themselves. This would require Team Evil actually not curse that Day; if we have two claimed Curses, we stand back and watch to see who dies, then Disintegrate the survivor the next Day. Of course, since TDPats is also dead and known to be Good this loses a lot of it’s force. Post [post=10868630]559[/post]. This is the big one laying out a case against Sachertorte. The meat of the case is this; that Sach (in [post=]525[/post]) misrepresented the case Storyteller made against sinjin in post [post=10848267]216[/post]. Storyteller’s reasoning for voting sinjin was that she “misrepresented Sachertorte’s arguments.” Sach, however, characterised it as “harping on me for my ideas”, whereas that better describes Storyteller’s case against Chucara. This might be a simple slip, or an intentional obfuscation; if the latter, it could be to protect Chucara or smear sinjin. Then we come to post [post=10868902]574[/post]. In this, Storyteller begs for death and lays out an interesting argument. Not against Sach, but against Hawkeyeop, for claiming that TDPats case against Storyteller was “credible.” I have to say that I disagree with this; the argument is a stretch. It’s convoluted, and it depends on the Curse killing (which cannot be guaranteed; a Cleric could attempt a Cure, and the Orb of Healing, which was then in the Hoard, provides another 1d2 weakened Curses.) As I already mentioned, one reason Team Evil might not Curse a Good Cleric is that said Cleric can cure _himself_. A failure of the Curse will pretty much confirm the investigator in the minds of others, and they’ve had their Kill action nullified. (Of course, they could have foregone Cursing and simply said they’d Cursed their Cleric – but they didn’t). This leaves me somewhat suspicious of both Hawk and Sach. However, I don’t think it’s really advisable to vote right now, as I haven’t considered the case against Hockey Monkey yet. One other thing I’ve been thinking about is whether it is strategically viable to Disintegrate both candidates. Yesterday, the optimum action was not to disintegrate two players, to play around the possibility that Team Evil might win if we did so. That’s the primary reason I placed no vote; I was watching for shenanigans forcing a tie and was prepared to break it if necessary. (Which brings up a point. Darth Sensitive _did_ vote to create a tie, and that means he’ll be under the microscope after HM.) Today, however, Disintegrating both is a viable strategic ploy if we really cannot decide between them. It reduces the risk of losing this Turn, at the cost of throwing away the chance of improving our position. I now have to reexamine the posts of HM and Sachertorte before voting. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/695 "2009-02-27T04:05:34Z")
> [@MHaye](#): > > Today, however, Disintegrating both is a viable strategic ploy if we really cannot decide between them. It reduces the risk of losing this Turn, at the cost of throwing away the chance of improving our position. Can’t say I’m a fan of this idea, because it eliminates the need to choose, and therefore severely limits our information gain from the lynch. Forcing people to choose and state why is better in the long run, IMO. And if we can get it right, better in the short run, too. ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/696 "2009-02-27T09:48:48Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > Can’t say I’m a fan of this idea, because it eliminates the need to choose, and therefore severely limits our information gain from the lynch. Forcing people to choose and state why is better in the long run, IMO. And if we can get it right, better in the short run, too. It’s not nearly as good as Disintegrating one player and getting an Evil one. My point is twofold. One, something that was a pro-Scum action last Turn is not automatically pro-Scum this Turn, and two, if we started with a five-person Team Evil then Disintegrating both is a way to avoid the risk of picking the wrong player and losing on the spot. I should note that _ **if** _ Sachertorte is in fact Evil, then his gambit makes most sense if our taking the bait makes the game end this Turn. If we Disintegrate HM and find her Good, we Disintegrate Sach next Turn, but if the game ends then having an exposed Evil player is meaningless. Conversely, if there are only four players in Team Evil, then we can survive Disintegrating only one player, unless something weird goes on from Turn actions. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/697 "2009-02-27T13:37:38Z")
Just a note - sorry I’ve been out for a bit - my boyfriend was running a pretty high fever yesterday. On the good front, he doesn’t have a fever today. On the bad front, we’re getting on a plane and going to Vegas. ☹ Life is unfair. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/698 "2009-02-27T14:11:43Z")
> [@MHaye](#): > > It’s not nearly as good as Disintegrating one player and getting an Evil one. > > My point is twofold. One, something that was a pro-Scum action last Turn is not automatically pro-Scum this Turn, and two, if we started with a five-person Team Evil then Disintegrating both is a way to avoid the risk of picking the wrong player and losing on the spot. > > I should note that _ **if** _ Sachertorte is in fact Evil, then his gambit makes most sense if our taking the bait makes the game end this Turn. If we Disintegrate HM and find her Good, we Disintegrate Sach next Turn, but if the game ends then having an exposed Evil player is meaningless. > > Conversely, if there are only four players in Team Evil, then we can survive Disintegrating only one player, unless something weird goes on from Turn actions. I hear you, and what you say makes total sense. Nevertheless, I would rather play for the win than play not to lose. I think lynching both of them is playing not to lose. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/699 "2009-02-27T16:15:09Z")
Well, I essentially voted to disintegrate both of them in my last post. If that is not the way we want to go I would appreciate it if one of you who has not voted for one of them do so before the end of the turn. I will be back on hopefully before the end of the Turn and if the consensus is that we should only choose one I will leave my vote on **sachertorte** , for the reasons given above, and remove it from **Hockey Monkey**. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/700 "2009-02-27T16:59:43Z")
We’ve got about 3 hours to go, and not much going on. As with last Friday, I have a 2:00 (Eastern) meeting and I doubt I will be back in time to make any last minute arguments. My action is already submitted, so that bonehead mistake won’t happen again. I am leaving my vote on **Hockey Monkey**. Aside from **sinjin** , nobody who is voting for **sach** has presented even a remotely credible case. \*\*sinjin’s \*\*case was thorough and well-documented, but it was adequately explained away by **sach** himself and, more importantly, by **Hawkeyeop** , a poster I now trust due to my investigation. I do not think we should vote for both of them, as I just explained above. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633.md?page=36)