# Munchkin Mini Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 13, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633 "2009-02-13T02:05:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/121 "2009-02-16T17:44:06Z")
> [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](#): > > Yes, but lawful characters merely require all magical items to be out of the hands of Chaotic characters at the end of the game. I think that you can fail to achieve your goal as an good/evil Character, and still achieve your goal as a lawful character. No, you are wrong, I’m afraid. The rules state that “The game ends when any character meets **both** of their victory conditions.” (bolding mine) ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/122 "2009-02-16T17:48:37Z")
> [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](#): > > Yes, but lawful characters merely require all magical items to be out of the hands of Chaotic characters at the end of the game. I think that you can fail to achieve your goal as an good/evil Character, and still achieve your goal as a lawful character. I think you have to satisfy both conditions to win. Which creates a sticky situation with the Chaotic players. If any Chaotic players are alive when Good prevails and the items are in disarray, then only the living Chaotic players will win. Item distribution will become critical at the endgame. The easiest way to ensure a Lawful win would be to eliminate Chaotic characters, but finding them under such a policy will not be easy. I think a good method would be for Chaotic Characters to claim mid-game with the stipulation that possession of an item warrants death. I don’t know. It’s a weird situation. We can also try to put things into the Hoard near end-game. Cookies’s Druid Wind comes to mind. It seems most powerful to use near endgame to help with the Lawful win condition. But there is no guarantee that Cookies is Lawful Good or will even survive to the endgame. Maybe sweeping up the items into the Hoard earlier is better. Then watcher type players can watch the Hoard. ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/123 "2009-02-16T18:10:56Z")
Sachertorte, I think the Axe of Hacking is not quite as bad as you think.. > [@sachertorte](#): > > That leaves the Axe of Hacking and the Sword of Dancing as my prime concerns. The Axe is the worst, the Sword of Dancing slightly less so. Should these items fall into Evil hands, they will be able to kill multiple times during a Turn. This is very very bad, worse than all that hubbub about Helms and Reflections. Let’s say the item is in possession of an Evil character. They decide to use the power. Whether the blow succeeds or not, the Evil player doesn’t get to keep the Axe. Either it lands in the Hoard, or the Evil player has just given it to an avowed enemy of theirs. So yes, the Evil players can use it to get an extra kill, but not each and every turn. ---
**Author:** ![Hockey\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a183cd/32.png) [@Hockey\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hockey_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/124 "2009-02-16T18:14:53Z")
The Ring of Limited Wishes looks like a sticky wicket as well, as one of the things you can do with it is take a magic item of your choice. I just PMed Pleo to ask if an item gets returned to the Hoard upon a players death. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/125 "2009-02-16T18:54:38Z")
> [@MHaye](#): > > Sachertorte, I think the Axe of Hacking is not quite as bad as you think..Let’s say the item is in possession of an Evil character. They decide to use the power. > > Whether the blow succeeds or not, the Evil player doesn’t get to keep the Axe. Either it lands in the Hoard, or the Evil player has just given it to an avowed enemy of theirs. > > So yes, the Evil players can use it to get an extra kill, but not each and every turn. Perhaps I’m slightly alarmist, but my feeling is that any extra kills directed by Evil is extremely bad. When balancing typical games, giving Scum an extra night kill (even one-shot) is very powerful. It is half a mislynch right there. Maybe scum holding an axe can’t kill every Turn, but even twice in the game would wildly shift the balance in favor of Evil. Throw in multiple killing items and we have a recipe for disaster. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/126 "2009-02-16T18:58:33Z")
> [@Hockey\_Monkey](#): > > The Ring of Limited Wishes looks like a sticky wicket as well, as one of the things you can do with it is take a magic item of your choice. Yes. I agree. Most items are more powerful for scum than they are for Town. The only items with clear Pro-Town powers are the Orb of Healing and the Helm of Telepathy. Possibly the Rod of Divination, but that depends on what strategy we employ. The rest look either neutral or Pro-Evil. ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/127 "2009-02-16T19:19:47Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > Perhaps I’m slightly alarmist, but my feeling is that any extra kills directed by Evil is extremely bad. I think we can agree on that. I just got the feeling that you thought the bad guy wielding the Axe could do so every turn, and wanted to clear it up. I have to get tea soon. I’ll do some reading and be back with some thoughts later tonight. ---
**Author:** ![Hockey\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a183cd/32.png) [@Hockey\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hockey_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/128 "2009-02-16T20:32:04Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > Yes. I agree. Most items are more powerful for scum than they are for Town. The only items with clear Pro-Town powers are the Orb of Healing and the Helm of Telepathy. Possibly the Rod of Divination, but that depends on what strategy we employ. The rest look either neutral or Pro-Evil. Maybe everyone should use Turn One to place their item into the Hoard then. Then we won’t have to deal with the magical items. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/129 "2009-02-16T20:45:03Z")
> [@Hockey\_Monkey](#): > > Maybe everyone should use Turn One to place their item into the Hoard then. Then we won’t have to deal with the magical items. 😛 The thought crossed my mind as well. I’d love for my item to end up in the Hoard. I’m not going to use it anyway since I need to spend my time investigating instead. The problem is, I need to use a Turn to put the item into the Hoard. I’m not sure if it makes sense to use a Turn for that or if we are better off having me investigate during Turn One. Presumably, others might feel the same way about their Turn. But I think the possibility of putting items into the Hoard should be discussed. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/130 "2009-02-16T21:31:10Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > The thought crossed my mind as well. I’d love for my item to end up in the Hoard. I’m not going to use it anyway since I need to spend my time investigating instead. The problem is, I need to use a Turn to put the item into the Hoard. I’m not sure if it makes sense to use a Turn for that or if we are better off having me investigate during Turn One. > > Presumably, others might feel the same way about their Turn. But I think the possibility of putting items into the Hoard should be discussed. I for one am happy to discuss it, but if you’re talking about a Mass Item Dump, I don’t think it’s going to work. The bad guys aren’t going to want to give up their items. Chaotic players - who must survive to win - aren’t going to want to give up any defensive items. Even Lawful or Good players who feel like they have a helpful item may not want to give it up immediately, possibly with good reason. So I think what would happen is that the players who have unhelpful items will be happy to ditch them, either for good reason or for cred, but most will not. And I’m not sure we can learn much by refusal. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/131 "2009-02-17T02:54:53Z")
So no one cares about sacher’s oopsie or about his strong desire for all of us but him to toss our stuff into the hoard? Color me confused, but that’s my normal state.☹ ---
**Author:** ![Hockey\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a183cd/32.png) [@Hockey\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hockey_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/132 "2009-02-17T03:23:49Z")
> [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](#): > > If I counted correctly there are also 9 magical items from the list that are therefore not in this game. I’m going to guess that some of the extra killy ones are amongst the non-present. I’m re-reading, and I don’t understand this. I’m sure it’s something obvious that I’m just not parsing. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/133 "2009-02-17T04:01:49Z")
> [@Hockey\_Monkey](#): > > I’m re-reading, and I don’t understand this. I’m sure it’s something obvious that I’m just not parsing. There are 25 magic items (including the Rod of Disintegration), so 24 potentially in our possession, but only 15 of us. The rules say that “each character is given a random magic item” - one magic item, so that means that 9 items from the list are presumably not in the game. ---
**Author:** ![Hockey\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a183cd/32.png) [@Hockey\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hockey_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/134 "2009-02-17T04:22:56Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > There are 25 magic items (including the Rod of Disintegration), so 24 potentially in our possession, but only 15 of us. The rules say that “each character is given a random magic item” - one magic item, so that means that 9 items from the list are presumably not in the game. I meant the part about the extra killy ones being amoung the non-present. Who are the non-present. Is it some D&D term? ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/135 "2009-02-17T04:25:33Z")
As for why Boozahol is guessing that the “extra killy” ones might not be present, I have no idea other than wishful thinking or perhaps meta-gaming as to the implications for balance. What was it that sachertorte said that I’m supposed to find suspicious again? ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/136 "2009-02-17T04:28:42Z")
Um…I believe he meant non-present as in not present as in the 9 items that are on the list of possibilities but were not assigned to any of us and are ergo not in the game. Not “non-present” as in a faction of players to whom the extra-killy items were given. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/137 "2009-02-17T04:31:37Z")
> [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](#): > > Um…I believe he meant non-present as in not present as in the 9 items that are on the list of possibilities but were not assigned to any of us and are ergo not in the game. Not “non-present” as in a faction of players to whom the extra-killy items were given. Yeah, that’s what I took him to mean, too. ---
**Author:** ![Hockey\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a183cd/32.png) [@Hockey\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hockey_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/138 "2009-02-17T04:32:20Z")
> [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](#): > > Um…I believe he meant non-present as in not present as in the 9 items that are on the list of possibilities but were not assigned to any of us and are ergo not in the game. Not “non-present” as in a faction of players to whom the extra-killy items were given. :smack: That’s it. _slinks off in shame_ ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/139 "2009-02-17T04:33:10Z")
> [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](#): > > What was it that sachertorte said that I’m supposed to find suspicious again? [Here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10833607&postcount=107) ---
**Author:** ![Hockey\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a183cd/32.png) [@Hockey\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hockey_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633/140 "2009-02-17T04:35:12Z")
> [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](#): > > What was it that sachertorte said that I’m supposed to find suspicious again? He said that storyteller and BoozySquid were Good. Which does smell like PIS (Perfect Information Syndrome). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/munchkin-mini-mafia/485633.md?page=8)