# Murder across a state boundary **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 1, 2005, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-across-a-state-boundary/333557 "2005-12-01T14:56:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-across-a-state-boundary/333557/1 "2005-12-01T14:56:09Z")
If I stood just within the border of New Mexico and shot and killed someone who stood a little distance away within the border of Texas, where would the crime have been committed? Couldn’t it be argued that I didn’t kill anyone in New Mexico, nor did I commit a crime in Texas, not having been in that state? Clearly I wouldn’t get away with murder, but just how would I be charged and where? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-across-a-state-boundary/333557/2 "2005-12-01T15:18:11Z")
The general rule is that the offense is committed in the jurisdiction where the offending actor was when he did it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-across-a-state-boundary/333557/3 "2005-12-01T15:25:32Z")
I should note in more detail, though, that even that rule may be subject to some question. Here’s a great law school hypo: the Four Corners Murder. Abel and Baker get into a fight at the Four Corners monument, and Abel chases Baker, circling around the point at which Colorado, Utah, Arizona, and New Mexico all meet. Finally Abel fires a gun, mortally wounding Baker. At the instant the gun goes off, Abel’s body is in Colorado, but his outstretched hand, with the gun in it, is in Utah. The bullet travels across the state line from Utah into Arizona, striking Baker, who then staggers dramatically into New Mexico before dying. Who can prosecute Abel? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-across-a-state-boundary/333557/4 "2005-12-01T15:27:06Z")
(Fortunately, security cameras installed after 9/11 were able to capture the entire event in great detail, so we know, factually, precisely where each event occurred relative to the state lines.) ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-across-a-state-boundary/333557/5 "2005-12-01T15:46:24Z")
**Bricker** , is this one of those cases of “we won’t know until it happens”? That is, a lot of case law rests on precedent, but if there _is no_ precedent, then there’s no way to know exactly how something like this will fall out until it actually happens and some poor judge is placed in the position of creating the precedent. Of course, if there really is a precedent for this, just ignore everything I just said. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-across-a-state-boundary/333557/6 "2005-12-01T15:46:36Z")
The Federal Government, because it involved crossing state lines, and it was on a National Monument? Just a guess… Either that, or the Navajo Nation? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-across-a-state-boundary/333557/7 "2005-12-01T17:21:12Z")
I would have to think that if you killed someone on a National Monument, you’re going to Federal court. It would also likely be easier to sort it out there since you wouldn’t have to worry about the diversity of jurisdictions. ---
**Author:** ![dqa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dqa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dqa)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-across-a-state-boundary/333557/8 "2005-12-01T17:57:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The general rule is that the offense is committed in the jurisdiction where the offending actor was when he did it. I was told by a judge that the key is where the crime is completed (he used a different word which I don’t recall right now). So in the OP, the crime is it Texas, where the bullet actually killed the victim, even though the action was initiated in NM. Is this assessment flat-out wrong, or is this approach simply not as important as I was led to believe? ---
**Author:** ![milquetoast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/258eb7/32.png) [@milquetoast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milquetoast)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-across-a-state-boundary/333557/9 "2005-12-01T18:10:18Z")
> [@dqa](#): > > I was told by a judge that the key is where the crime is completed (he used a different word which I don’t recall right now). So in the OP, the crime is it Texas, where the bullet actually killed the victim, even though the action was initiated in NM. \IANAL\ Even if it were decided that Texas would try the suspect for murder because that’s where the act was completed. I suspect New Mexico could at least bring charges of attempted murder on their side of the border, since that’s where the act was initiated (and “where the offending actor was” to quote **Bricker** ). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-across-a-state-boundary/333557/10 "2005-12-01T21:00:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \IANAL\ > > Even if it were decided that Texas would try the suspect for murder because that’s where the act was completed. I suspect New Mexico could at least bring charges of attempted murder on their side of the border, since that’s where the act was initiated (and “where the offending actor was” to quote Bricker). I don’t think that would work, since attempted murder is a lesser included offense of murder, and if the shooter got tried for both, he’d be in double jeopardy. He could, however, be charged with “illegal discharge of a firearm”, or something of the sort, in New Mexico (assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that New Mexico has such laws). The Four Corners Murder, I would expect to be tried in federal courts. But I suspect that there are precedents: There was a thread recently about a murder case where the actual death occurred decades after the shooting which ultimately caused it, and it’s certainly not unreasonable to suppose that the victim might have moved in the meanwhile (though I don’t recall if he actually did in that case, there are probably other similar cases). So that covers the aspect of the victim staggering over into New Mexico before expiring. And there are probably also precedents for crimes (not necessarily murder) in which the crime was initiated in a different state than where it took effect, or where the “person” (possibly a corporation) who committed the crime was partially across state lines at the time. There may not be (and probably isn’t) a precedent for all of these elements in the same crime, but that shouldn’t be a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-across-a-state-boundary/333557/11 "2005-12-01T21:04:08Z")
Don’t think there’d be double jeopardy. Texas and New Mexico are different jurisdictions, and may separately charge an individual for different conduct even if the conduct in question resulted in the death of just a single person. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-across-a-state-boundary/333557/12 "2012-11-20T13:06:49Z")
A good zombie but a related question, why would murder across state lines not end up in Federal Court? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-across-a-state-boundary/333557/13 "2012-11-20T13:11:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I should note in more detail, though, that even that rule may be subject to some question. > > Here’s a great law school hypo: the Four Corners Murder. > > Abel and Baker get into a fight at the Four Corners monument, and Abel chases Baker, circling around the point at which Colorado, Utah, Arizona, and New Mexico all meet. Finally Abel fires a gun, mortally wounding Baker. At the instant the gun goes off, Abel’s body is in Colorado, but his outstretched hand, with the gun in it, is in Utah. The bullet travels across the state line from Utah into Arizona, striking Baker, who then staggers dramatically into New Mexico before dying. > > Who can prosecute Abel? My guess is, there is no correct answer and it’s just designed to get people [del]arguing[/del]debating from all angles. ---
**Author:** ![postcards](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8e8cbc/32.png) [@postcards](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/postcards)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-across-a-state-boundary/333557/14 "2012-11-20T14:05:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …Abel and Baker get into a fight at the Four Corners monument… I know this is a zombie, but it should be noted that the Four Corners Monument is a [few dozen feet](https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Four+Corners+monument&hl=en&ll=36.999091,-109.045229&spn=0.001722,0.002784&sll=38.612137,-110.218339&sspn=3.450794,5.701904&t=h&gl=us&hq=Four+Corners+monument&z=19) southeast of the actual borders. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-across-a-state-boundary/333557/15 "2012-11-20T15:05:48Z")
This leads into the Yellowstone Defense theory - there’s a corner of Wyoming, I think, that has so few people it is arguably impossible to seat a jury of peers. I think this one entrances the survivalist/separatist/white power crowd, for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-across-a-state-boundary/333557/16 "2012-11-20T15:10:14Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > A good zombie but a related question, why would murder across state lines not end up in Federal Court? Is it a federal crime? I know it’s a crime in every state, but if it’s regulated at the state level, it’s not a federal crime, right? ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-across-a-state-boundary/333557/17 "2012-11-20T15:27:31Z")
> [@postcards](#): > > I know this is a zombie, but it should be noted that the Four Corners Monument is a [few dozen feet](https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Four+Corners+monument&hl=en&ll=36.999091,-109.045229&spn=0.001722,0.002784&sll=38.612137,-110.218339&sspn=3.450794,5.701904&t=h&gl=us&hq=Four+Corners+monument&z=19) southeast of the actual borders. No it isn’t. The borders on Google Maps are far from accurate. The quadripoint is defined in law as the centre of the bronze disk in the middle of the monument. It is true, however, that the lines as surveyed are not exactly where they were supposed to be, but that is beside the point. Once the line is marked on the ground, that is the boundary, regardless of whether or not it is on the meridian or line of latitude it was originally planned to be. > [@](#): > > In 2009, a spokesperson for the U.S. National Geodetic Survey admitted the monument is placed 1,807 feet (551 m) east of where modern surveyors would mark the point. However, he defended the accuracy of the 1875 survey, stating surveyors “nailed it” considering the primitive tools of the day. Pointing out the achievement given the conditions, he further stated, “Their ability to replicate that exact point — what they did was phenomenal, what they did was spot on.” He concluded by stating that any claims of errors in the location of the monument are irrelevant. Once a survey commissioned to establish a boundary has been accepted by the involved parties, the survey markers are legally binding, regardless of any error that is later discovered.[11] Similar statements were issued by the Navajo Nation, defending their work in maintaining and promoting the monument.[12] In addition, general U.S. land principles,[13] law,[14] and the Supreme Court have established that the location of the monument is the legal corner of the four states.[15] From [Four Corners Monument - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Corners_Monument) ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-across-a-state-boundary/333557/18 "2012-11-20T15:34:29Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > A good zombie but a related question, why would murder across state lines not end up in Federal Court? > [@Nava](#): > > Is it a federal crime? I know it’s a crime in every state, but if it’s regulated at the state level, it’s not a federal crime, right? [This thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=393027), and particularly post #4, answer this question. Essentially, the basic federal murder statute only applies in the “special maritime and territorial jurisdiction”, which is stuff like US waters, ships, planes and so on. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-across-a-state-boundary/333557/19 "2012-11-20T15:44:32Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > If I stood just within the border of New Mexico and shot and killed someone who stood a little distance away within the border of Texas, where would the crime have been committed? Couldn’t it be argued that I didn’t kill anyone in New Mexico, nor did I commit a crime in Texas, not having been in that state? > Clearly I wouldn’t get away with murder, but just how would I be charged and where? Need answer fast? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-across-a-state-boundary/333557/20 "2012-11-20T15:59:14Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > Need answer fast? 😛 I hope not. We’re just a few days shy of seven years! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/murder-across-a-state-boundary/333557.md?page=2)